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GW II goes to the brink...

2K views 53 replies 10 participants last post by  Agrajag 
#1 ·
Well, tonight was a bad night for the new GW II.


So bad that I am right now 100% on the middle of the fence with regard to keeping the TV or returning it, giving up on widescreen solutions for now and just going with their 40" XBR800 tube.


I watched Flyers hockey on Comcast SportsNet tonight and tried every mode and color temperature. Nothing could get the picture to look even remotely like my 36" XBR tube. Every sign on the boards blurred heavily when the camera panned. Every player would go out of focus with movement. The white had to be toned down to such a degree that the picture outside the game looked way too dark.


Worse, while watching a DVD during a dark scene I could not help but notice a bright green dead pixel, from 12 feet back. I then really looked and counted over 50 dead pixels. Most would be virtual imperceptible as they are almost just shadows but there's a solid red one, three bright greens and a cluster of blues. I suspect the brightest ones are actually not a single pixel but several sequential pixels that are out the same way.


I've been tweaking for several days now and the results are very mixed. Some content looks great but then other content just doesn't hold up. I'm actually finding myself getting fatigued watching the set with all the blur that it induces.


Most annoying was that I had to go upstairs to watch the end of the hockey game on my tube set to enjoy it.


Tomorrow the cable guys will be here and will install HDTV. I'm going to give the set a bit more time and if game 7 in HDTV looks great and HDTV channels look great, I'm going to hang in. If I have continued blurring issues and such, the set is going back and I'm going to have to admit total failure for my viewing habits with the current state of widescreen options.


First I had the burn-in issues, picture issues and size issues with the KP-65WV700 attempts. Now I have dead pixels, blurry images, washed out images, etc. LCOS looks to be a possible solution in the future so it might be best for me to cut my losses here, go for the better tube downstairs, bide my time and, in another 12-36 months see where things are then.


What I have liked are the looks of XBox games (even with the blur), most DVD and the size of the screen especially when it comes in such a thin, light design.
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by umr
What have you tweaked in the service menu?
Not a whole lot. I changed only Input 1 until late last night (after this first post) when I also changed the coax input which is what the game came through so theoretically nothing should have really bothered it.


What I did change on Input 1 (which is just used for DirecTV via a DirecTV with Tivo unit, and not what I watched the game on) in order:


OSP from 0 to 1 (nice increase in sharpness)

PKNG from 25 to 0 (amazing decrease in perception of artifacts)


VGAM from 28 to 31 (things didn't change much)


CDLY from 4 to 7 (couldn't notice any difference)


And then I stopped right there as Page 6 started off with how hard the next section was and which is where I really started thinking I should ask for help.


But again, the game was watched on RG6 input, raw basic cable.


Picture had started out just over 50%. Brightness was just below it. Sharpness was around 40%. I moved all three all over in an attempt to help and nothing really did.


This was all initially done in Pro mode. I then switched off to Mild which was better initially and finally went with Standard/Neutral. But it was still a mess.


With respect to Clarity and Reality, as I mentioned elsewhere (and to be clear, Reality is up, Clarity is horizontal and right) I notice a huge difference. If I go to all clarity (extreme right) and no reality (at the bottom) then the picture goes from sharp to blurry. In fact, going the other way dramatically increased the picture in XBox games via S-Video and removed much of the blurring effect when game elements moved. It also stopped the wierd effect of SD DirecTV images of anchors and such from going from extremely sharp to extremely blurry as they moved.


I should say that every tight shot of the game looked very good. It was when they showed a typical backed-off shot with many players moving about and LOTS of white that the picture went to complete hell.


Of course none of this says anything about the dead pixels but even with them, it's not bad. The bright green one is now showing itself to me in many shots (it's about an inch above where a typical 4:3 show HORIZONTAL black bar shows when they put out a show in widescreen and about 3/4 of the way across the screen).
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by trickd
I also recommend that, if you do not need a cable box, run a cable line directly from the wall into the built-in tuner. I get much better PQ on the Comcast analog tier (2-99) this way, especially since making the UMR tweaks. I can't comment on dead/stuck pixels, because I haven't noticed any, and try my hardest not to look for them.
That's the way it is now. Since I have a dish, I only keep basic cable around for Comcast SportsNet and a backup of the locals and such if the dish picture goes out.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
I prefer to watch 4:3 with the bars. The stretch modes just annoy me for the most part. Drove me nuts on the classic RPTV's as the gray bars were quite distracting and then you constantly worried about burn-in. I'm a bit concerned that you and I watched the same game on the same feed and apparently you found it very good to excellent and I found it unwatchable. What full settings did you run it in?


One thing I don't understand. I thought All the games were in HDTV. But then again, I guess games out of Toronto wouldn't qualify as they're not being shot in HDTV most likely. Doh. Good thing tonight's game is at home.


Trust me, I really want to hang in. I'm literally depressed over this whole affair. This is a more than $5,000 investment. I spent $1,700 on my 36" XBR just about 5 years ago (a great price at that time as retail was $2,500 and most were discounted to $2,200). My thinking is an investment of this much more should be a breeze to impress me over my other set. Is that being unrealistic? Yes, I know a tube is hard to beat, but all this set would have to do is to show SD decently across all material (not just basic shows) and to excel with DVD's and HDTV. DVD's, for the most part, have blown me away, at least the more epic ones (Dances With Wolves, Lord of the Rings, Matrix, etc.)
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by motjes2
This is just my opinion. The expectation of Standard Definition programming for a lot of us are very high. We like to compare the output of GWII/DLP to how well our 36 inches TV performed. I find this comparison to be unfair.
I agree with you in principle with one major exception. A TV must present TV well to be of value. My 36" XBR does with ease. I'm willing to bet the 40" would as well. I'm also willing to bet future technologies will have no issue at some point (or at least as few as our XBR tubes).


My issue is that television (SD) is still the main viewing habit of most of us. If the picture there is bad, and again, the hockey game was nearly unwatchable, then it's not worth a whole lot to us. It's sort of like having a car that runs great in reverse. The problem is, I mainly drive forward.


I do not think it's unfair to expect a $5,000 TV to provide a decent picture from a direct, very clean basic cable source. Comcast SportsNet is one of their best pictures. CNN and other basic cable programs look just fine, if a bit grainy, but it just seems right now to me that I've run into the hard wall of LCD weaknesses, blur and wash-out. I do HOPE that I can tweak my way out of this but I'm troubled by having to go through so much work just to get an acceptable picture. 40 minutes with Video Essentials on my XBR tube and I was set, so far for the life of the TV.

Quote:
If I were you, I will ask for a replacement. A dead pixel visible from 12 feet is annoying.
Very much so. The odd part is, I see them all over the screen on a black screen but these few are BIG. It's as if the others are stuck in a color but not really illuminated or are in some way muted. But then these few (and there's a blue set that's a 1/8" in size) are very obvious and larger than the others. Wish I knew more about the technology to be able to explain why the difference happens.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
It's a 30 day thing. I happened to mention to the sales guy that the Internet has Service Menu tweaks to improve things but didn't say a word about my using them. But when I called to warn them about the possible return and the dead pixels their first comment was, "Well, you probably caused them when you went into the service mode." Yeah, right.


If it comes to it, I'll point out that the remote has a button for the the "Service Menu" right on it and fully admit to using it.


HDTV just showed up. It's MUCH better including standard basic cable. Tonight is still the big test to me. HBO HD looked really nice of course though I wasn't blown away. It looked like DVD to me. Of course it was just Mothman Prophecies and not anything impressive.


Oh, the installer said HDTV receivers don't support 5.1. He had no idea what the single Digital Out was for.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Well, here in our Comcast area we don't get the Motorola boxes. We get Scientific Atlanta boxes.


And yes, the installer was quite clueless. In fact, this one didn't understand how my cable splitter worked!
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
I will also say that so far, HBO HD has been very washed out. The locals look great, especially CBS (ABC looks not nearly as nice so far which is a 720p picture which makes me wonder about their view that 720p is imperceptible from 1080i). Still awaiting the DTV Loop on PBS here. Starts at 8pm.
 
Discussion starter · #21 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by umr
Copying my numbers is not how you set this parameter. You need to correct alignment errors of chroma and luma information with CDLY. The parameter under PIC-BOOST only works for 480i inputs though.


You might just want to bag the whole HD RPTV thing if you are not satisfied after that.
I didn't just copy your numbers. That I ended up at them is purely a bit of luck and a bit of "Hey, okay, that starting number looks pretty good."


I used to test monitors for a living so while the technology may be foreign to me, I do know a good picture when I see one and I am able to see subtle changes in a picture for the better (or worse). As I said, if I just copied your numbers I wouldn't have the DRC numbers I have.


I haven't, at this point fully decided what to do yet. My general feeling is that widescreen HDTV outside of tube technologies just is not quite ready for the masses yet. Each of the current technologies (not counting LCOS as it's too new) has significant drawbacks that would prevent it from being accepted by the mainstream consumer base. I lean more towards that base than that of an enthusiast. In my circles I AM an enthusiast. In your circles, I'm in the middle ground. Trust me, I am the trickle of what will soon be a flood of people moving into this territory.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by CCsoftball7
It seems as though your brightness is set too high. I've seen several people on here complain about the "screen door" effect. I don't see this on the set. The blacks may be a little grey, but VERY little (only on very dark scenes). As odd as this sounds, set the contrast HIGHER and the brightness lower (completely opposite of normal RPTVs). This advice is coming from someone who owned a CRT base RPTV before my GWII.
Well, my set is pretty much set as you suggest above. Basically, most things look great.


What I cannot get away from, no matter WHAT setting changes, are generally foggy images. Sharpness does not appear to be possible here. When it comes, it comes ONLY when the image is static. The moment it moves, a subtle blurring occurs. On poor source material this is even more pronounced.


I am seeing the screendoor effect but it does not bother me. It's quite subtle.


I will say that I'm now done watching the hockey game in HDTV and my feeling is, LCD and hockey do not go together. Just as above, when the action was minimal or in close up, the picture was STUNNING. On a pulled back shot or with lots of action, the players blur, the elements around the rink blur. In fact, I've been watching hockey my entire life and have always been able to follow the puck. Here, on a 60" screen in HDTV all the hardest shots literally vanished from view by becoming a very minimal fast moving blur virtually imperceptible as a puck.


The bottom line to me remains. My 36" XBR 250 was $1,700 and has blown away visitors for nearly 5 years now. A set costing 3 times that should just as easily impress and yet virtually everyone who sees it has mixed comments about it.


My 4 options are:


1. Keep it and work to remove the trouble spots


2. Check out the Toshiba LCOS (VERY unlikely. Too expensive, too new, smaller, not sure about discreet code support, etc.)


3. Return this set and get the 40" XBR800 tube and hang in until the new GWIII shows up to see if it addresses my concerns.


4. Bag the whole thing and go back to my old set (unlikely as it has no HDTV and I really wonder how good this would look on a tube).


If they made a 45" 16:9 tube, I'd be all over it. They don't so I'm pretty much out of luck for now.


I've thought about considering a front projector but most of those are either DLP now (I really see the rainbow effect there) or LCD (so it would have the SAME issues of motion blur I'm seeing here) so that's not really much of an option.


Just so everyone is clear. I'm really upset about this whole experience. I've been affected by it. I'm not just there to run sets in and out of my house and to drive everyone crazy with questions and concerns. I asked all of about 3 questions with my tube set and I think they were all Video Essentials questions.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
That's my thinking basically. No need to rush into anything.


Right now LCOS looks like the nicest next best thing.


I'm also stuck between getting the 40" XBR but my wife will not be very happy if I then, a year from now, want to move to something new.


That was the point. Get something I'll be VERY happy with for AT LEAST 5 years. If my tube was widescreen and HDTV I wouldn't have bothered looking.


The only issues I wonder about with LCOS is if it suffers from the motion blur LCD does and if it will have dead pixel issues. LCOS is based on LCD technology if memory serves and that motion blur is an issue to me.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
I do not believe it's the tuner. The first hockey game, non-HDTV, looked like hell from standard basic cable. It had blur. The DirecTV Tivo has blur when doing simple panning menus and it's that very well-known LCD blur. HDTV blurred. XBox games blurred. So, that's 4 different sources and all but the HDTV were tried pre and post tweaking and all blurred before and after.


Plus many others have noted this as a technology limitation. I just may be more aware of it. Remember, I used to test monitors for a living early in my career. I see picture flaws my wife almost never sees and she hates me when I point them out.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
I tried all the settings in HD. The blurring is there. You can reduce it, but not eliminate it.


Network HD looked great. With regard to blur, think about it. What are you watching in network HD, ER? There's not much there to blur.


But then go and look at the PBS demo loop. When they show virtually anything, especially things like trees, as soon as the camera moves, the detail of that object goes right out the window. This was the EXACT symptom I noted on the set on the floor at Tweeter and wondered if it would be a problem for me. So, perhaps that set was defective too but what are the odds? Granted, we know that floor sets are not setup right but mine I spent days working on in all sorts of modes. I even adjusted the set at Tweeter and it still did it.


Aside from all of this, I have yet to see really SHARP images on ANYTHING. The PBS demo loop came closest, but nothing has been entirely sharp yet, nothing.


Am I expecting too much? Think about that. I'm expecting a set that can display current technology WELL. That's what I paid for. My expectations are, in part, based on the price paid which is not small. I've had to work hard to get it to where it is. If anyone is in the Philly area and wants to take a look, I'd welcome it. I have about a week before this one goes back and gets replaced by a 40XBR800 tube. I don't think it's possible that anyone will tweak it enough to provide what I feel is a sharp, blur-free picture. If they could, I'd be willing to pay them as a thank you but at this point I don't think we can get there from here.


The picture is:


a) washed out at virtually any setting. This has been commented on before by many others.


b) suffering from motion blur. This is a typical by-product of LCD technology and has also been commented on by others.


c) not very sharp. I have not seen this one commented on much.


If those items went away, I'd be a happy camper. I've given it more than the college try and failed. I don't see what other alternative I have. Obviously an ISF calibrator isn't going to help. It's too new and if they can't fix it, I'm not going to want to pay.


Trust me, I really want to keep this set (though this one dead green pixel is driving me nuts so I would likely swap it if I kept it.) I am open to most anything. I even tried to see if someone would talk me through a tweaking by phone but we never could link up.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
Update. I just spoke with an ISF calibrator in the area. He confirms virtually everything I've outlined in this thread. He has not seen an LCD display (from anyone) that does not suffer from motion blur and he's calibrated quite a number of them. He said many people do not appear to be affected by it but when I laid out what I was seeing he said, "Yep, that's absolutely normal for that set and if you see it, nothing will eliminate it." About the only thing he could recommend was to go much smaller to reduce the nature of it.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by dickydoo
I also highly suggest you get the HD Video pack for the Xbox if you haven't done so already.
I think that's a good idea but I'm out of inputs on the TV how well do inputs run through receivers work if you use the receiver to do the switching? Does it introduce a bunch of noise? I'm picking up a Sony STR-DA7ES Friday.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by dickydoo
Some people say that most of the receivers that do component switching, save for the high end ones, don't have enough bandwidth to switch HD. Others claim they don't see a loss in quality.


YMMV...if you do see that the receiver doesn't cut it for component switching, I suggest an external component video switcher. I personally use this one and it works great. I have a DVD player and an Xbox going through it and NBA2K3 at 720p looks phenomenal.
The receiver is Sony's top of the line and claims to have full support for HDTV so we'll see. I mainly want it for exactly what you're doing. Share DVD and XBox. It already looks great just in S-Video on the big screen. I'll miss the 60XBR800 for Xbox games. Does your switcher work automatically or is it a manual box?
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
"c) not very sharp. I have not seen this one commented on much. "


I just cannot believe this. My 50" is so damn sharp I can't believe what I am looking at sometimes.
Maybe the 10 extra inches is adding to that. I suspect I'm seeing quite a bit at 60" that those on 50's wouldn't see. Motion blur is definitely one of them. I'm sure if this thing were a 40" I'd be really blown away. But even complete novices walk in and comment that the picture is anything but sharp.


Lord of the Rings on DVD certainly isn't sharp and that's a decent test. Frodo's face in anything but a close up (he looks flawless when on the ground dying as Liv Tyler comes along) looks out of focus.


Now you know why I've been fighting umr on the reality/clarity issue so much. When I add "clarity" the picture gets even less sharp. I did notice that adding clarity and reducing realism does remove some motion blur but at the cost of making EVERYTHING equally blurry. I no longer see the sharp one moment-blurry the next issue but then I just hate the picture overall.

Quote:
I do not even have HDTV. On 'Vivid' mode with the sharpness at about 25%, a good looking DVD is so sharp and crisp I shudder to think what an actual HiDef display will look like.
PBS' demo loop looked GREAT and fairly sharp until anything moved.

Quote:
What type of DVD player are you using along with what type of connection ???
Now THAT could be improved. I'm using a Sony 715 with a top of the line Monster component cable. But the 715 is basic and I was just looking to replace it when this all started. I was looking at the Denon 1600 among others.

Quote:
As for the 'blur', I notice it SLIGHTLY on very fast moving images on regular TV and some games, but IMO it is very slight and actually gives things a somewhat cinematic look. I actually like it !!! I kid you not. Although, if it were as bad as you seem to be perceiving it, I would not like it. I have not seen it on any DVD's though.
At least you're seeing it which is more than some are saying. I think I see it more than most and also, I'm 10" bigger than your screen so it's more pronounced. Hockey was really hard even at high-def. My wife, who rarely ever even sees digital artifacts on the 36" screen noticed the blur right away. It is much harder to see on DVD's though. My guess as to why hockey is more of an issue is all the white ice. I also have a harder time seeing it on HDTV outside of hockey, but it's there.


Watch a scene going through moving woods. Look at the leaves or the tree. On my tube TV I can see FULL detail on each of those trees and leaves. I can see much of that detail on plasma sets. I cannot see that detail AT ALL on this set or the 57" set at the local stores (been to several now for comparison trying to prove my set is defective and failing). My belief is that you're used to it and just accept it that way.

Quote:
and clear picture I get most of the time. Again, I am watching all DVD's and games in 'Vivid' mode under the 'Cool' temp setting and the contrast and colors are improved significantly under these settings !!!!!!!!!!!
Heading down again to see if that mode does anything for my situation.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
umr, and others, I had a great chat with Spooky on the phone tonight and we think we're onto something. Let me guess. Is your set the 50" model? I'm willing to bet most people here have the 50". If yours is, think about it. If you take that TV and add TEN inches to it, that's effectively magnifying any issues that may be there. Motion blur would be exaggerated, lack of detail would be multiplied, etc. The same number of pixels are still being used except that they're being projected onto a bigger screen. Spooky and I are really starting to think that MOST of what I'm seeing is due to the larger screen size. We're thinking I'd be MUCH happier with the 50" set. Thus, tomorrow I plan to go live at Tweeter for much of the day testing Avia, DVD's, watching SD TV and HDTV and see what I think.


He and I both compared the same Lord of the Rings movie frames and what we're seeing is dramatically different. Where I see blurry detail, he's seeing sharp detail. And I know if I shrink the image, it will appear more detailed.


BTW, that said, I think we're being sold a bill of goods on HDTV. Man, I watched the 76'ers game in HDTV tonight and motion blur was not a problem. In fact, it would have been great (the colors were EXCEPTIONAL and the detail was solid) but the digital artifacts were EVERYWHERE. The PBS Demo loop is full of them as well. What is the bottleneck there? Bandwidth limitations? If this is what everyone will be getting after moving to HDTV there's going to be a lot of unhappy people.
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
So you do have a 50"?


I still think some motion issues will be there but hopefully they'll be dramatically reduced. I'll know tomorrow I hope. If that fails, I'll give a VERY quick look a plasma (I don't think they're in my range even for a 42 for what I'd want and the burn-in would still be a concern) and if that fails I'll just let the order for the 40" XBR tube go through.
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by BagMan

This isn't the fault of the TV, it's that the SD picture quality is so poor, and the compression artifacts only make the problem worse. This is where HD comes into play. It allows you to sit closer to the TV while maintaining the same effective element/pixel size, thus enhancing the theater experience. SD simply cannot give the theater experience as you have to sit so far away to make it not look like crap.

Compression artifacts are not my biggest complaint. Those I am used to and they can be dealt with. What I'm complaining about is a) sharpness, b) washed out picture and most importantly c) motion blur.


I have a 12" laptop that shows motion blur on games. Size isn't the issue there. Sharpness may be related to size but I had concerns about it at the store looking at the 50" before going for the 60". A washed out picture also seems to have very little to do with size. There are washed out pictures on TV's of every size.


If SD pictures were all that I was concerned about, I could have easily waited that out, chalked it up to that and enjoyed each new HDTV channel that came along. But again, watching the Flyers in 1080i the other night was not enjoyable. You could feel the eye fatigue. So if there is going to be a problem at SD and issues at 1080i, sorry, but there isn't going to be much in the way of a solution there.

Quote:
For fun, do this, hit the picture-and-picture button on the remote and create two equal-sized pictures, put one of them to an unused input so it is simply black, then resize the other one to be 35" diagonally, then compare that picture quality to that of your 35" tube from your normal sitting position. I think you will find it fairly comparable in terms of sharpness, color, artifacting, etc.
I did that right off the bat and you're incorrect. First, even though the picture is smaller, the pixels are not smaller. The image being displayed is just a smaller subset of a larger picture. Plus, if they're reducing the picture, they're going to introduce their own issues into it. It didn't look comparable to my 36" set and suffered from much the same trouble. The only thing I didn't try at that size was to see how motion blur was impacted.

Quote:
if you want the bigger picture that HD and DVD sources can support, then you are going to have to sacrafice a little bit right now, but not near as much as you think you have sacraficed.
What I cannot sacrifice is an enjoyable experience and neither my wife or I enjoyed watching that hockey game. As I noted very early on, people would see my 36" XBR and say "WOW, what a stunning picture." And that's not HDTV and 4:3. Now, everyone who sees this picture is very mixed about it. No one, and we're talking normal mainstream people here, has said, "Wow" yet. Not one. Most say, "That looks really washed out" or "Why isn't the picture very sharp?"


I don't think that's what anyone had in mind when it came to sacrificing something.


In response to not seeing anything different on this set than on a CRT-based RPTV, I entirely disagree. There were NO motion blur problems on the RPTV's I had. And I sit 12' from the TV. Motion blur is a well-known LCD by-product. It manifests itself on this set easily. Just bring up a Tivo menu and presto, you see it. You will not see that on a CRT-based RPTV and mine was a 65" so it should have been even more prevalent.
 
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