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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so im at a local av store the other day and they tell me that the new $10k yamaha dlp is up and running with a dalite 120" screen.


i ask if i can see it and they say --sure--.


first thing i notice before anything is even powered-up is that the pj is sitting about 12" off-center of the screen but i keep my mouth shut and figure that they know what they are doing and have corrected for it right ?


when the pj starts i notice that the image gets larger from right to left.


to the point that it fills the screen top-to-bottom on the right and then overfills on the left by about 4".


the salesperson points out the distortion and says --nobody will even notice it.--


um.........ok


the dvd is [email protected] and it looks like crap.


i just watched it last month on a friends 42"wega crt so i know what it --can-- look like.


aside from the minimal contrast and color saturation what really stood-out is how --flat-- everything looked.


and just earlier i had just been viewing some hd stuff on 1 of the plasmas in the showroom and thinking how --flat-- the image looks compared even to my 27"toshiba crt which has 3d-like depth.


my not-even-converged bv600-s projecting onto the garage wall looked better than the $10k yamaha dlp in both color and depth.


i know im preaching to the choir but i just had to post this demo.


all i can say is --whattajoke--.
 

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I'm not convinced you could draw anything from that demo, as they had a 4" overscan on the left side and "nobody would even notice it". :)


I think the 3d effect is one of the killer display features I love about CRT. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
crt just always looks --life-like-- to me even if its a little out of focus or not very bright or even if the colors are a little off.


i didnt even mention all the swimming/artifacts when the action was moving around.


the sales guys looked a little dumbstruck/perplexed when i told them i had a customer that was going to spend $3500 for a used crt.


all hail the marketing-king !!!
 

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Sounds to me like the DLP was set up perfectly!


Curt
 

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I demoed my 1272 to a guy who was about to buy a DLP and his immediate reaction was to say how 'natural' the image was. And I hadn't converged the thing for about 3 months.
 

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There are digital PJ's out there that look really good too. I've gone to a "hi-end" HT shop and seen a 7" CRT on a 120" screen and they wonder why they cant sell it.....


Your demo says more about the staff at the shop and much less about the state of digital projectors. 99% of HT stores have staff who know virtually nothing about FP.


Sure CRT's are better for you and I, but they aren't "that" much better anymore. Have you seen a properly calibrated digital PJ?


Wes
 

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Sure, digital is getting good, really good if you want to spend the $$. But who wants to spend a lot of money and get just a tiny cheap plastic box that weighs 5 lbs? That's not a peice of theater equipment! A 200 lb projector is theater equipment.


Its like getting an audio amplifier that weighs 5 lbs, its not a HT amp unless it weighs up around 100 lbs (5-7 channels anyway).


Besides, who would want a 5 lb projector hanging from the ceiling when you can have a 200 lb projector that costs less and still throws a (perhaps only slightly) better image?
 

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Quote:
Sure, digital is getting good, really good if you want to spend the $$. But who wants to spend a lot of money and get just a tiny cheap plastic box that weighs 5 lbs? That's not a peice of theater equipment! A 200 lb projector is theater equipment.
Whats that noise Tim Allen used to make on Home Improvement.

AR, RR ,RR or something.


I agree completely.
 

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The standup comedy routine that spawned Home Improvement was excellent. Good bit in there about using a 500 HP diesel engine under the counter to power the garbage disposal, with a smokestack and little flapping lid coming out of the counter. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
hey mooneyass !


i have seen a properly calibrated dlp in a light-controlled room with a dlp-friendly screen and it wasnt much better than what i saw the other day.


they were playing --saving private ryan-- on dvd at like 1280x720 and while the resolution looked good there was still all that motion artifacting around all the edges of stuff that were moving and it still looked --flat-- and the colors didnt look very natural.


i forgot to mention that on the demo i saw the other day there looked to be a --convergence-- problem in that all the text had red showing above the letters as if the red gun needed to be brought down.


im thinking that maybe it was a cabling issue causing this as i know there is no convergence for dlp.


which brings me to...............why does crt always look so 3-d ?


would dlp/lcd look 3-d if they were shooting through individual r/g/b chips and lenses ?


is it the off-set of the guns in a crt that make things look 3-d ?


any thoughts ?
 

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Quote:
which brings me to...............why does crt always look so 3-d ?
Here's something I posted on another forum on this subject:

===================================================

One thing to note with all these new digital projectors is that they come much closer to CRT performance (but still don't quite get there) with HD sources. Great, bring on HDTV, BluRay, etc, I hear you say.


But what about the vast legacy of DVD SD software that we all possess and cherish? It's a lot like the situation with SACD and DVD-A vs CD - we all know that there is improvement to be had with these new audio formats (assuming the original source is good enough - another topic, entirely) but what about the legacy of all the CD titles that we own and are available? If you are really concerned with getting the most from your audio collection, then it make sense then to get the most out of it with a good CD (or DVD) player that closes the performance gap with the new formats. I think this applies equally to video and DVDs with the projector being the most critical component (plus a good progressive scan player like the Philips 963SA, although the $300 Sony 730 ain't bad at all).


So why do we see the continual advantage of CRT vs digital, even with display matrices that are equal to or greater than SD and the lack of screen door of DLP (even assuming rainbows are not apparent)?


Contrast is one issue. Digital projectors are continuing to improve in this area and the latest ones, with bright scenes are as good as CRT in showing detail. Go to a dark scene however, like the Moria scenes in FoTR, and the crushed output becomes apparent with huge losses of shadow detail. With some digital projectors, lamp and iris adjustment allow for increased contrast (3000:1 for the NEC HT1000) but this reduces the light output level to that of CRTs so the same light control is required while contrast is still not quite to CRT standards (typically ~15000:1).


Contrast, however is only one issue.


Animation is where digital projectors are at their best since they are created on monitors that display precise (or very close to - more so than HT CRTs or TVs) pixels so the aliasing/dithering of colours is performed in the animation. This allows for the discrete nature of digital displays and effectively reduces the resolution of the animation but because the process is so precisely controlled, the image looks sharp and clear.


For animations and computer games, digital projectors are awesome and with DVI connection to the source, they would probably be as good as any CRT for this sort of image/video, aside from the contrast issue. Films, however are another matter.


A friend came over just recently to scope out my system upgrades (and remote X10 lighting). He had brought over an AE300 to test a few weeks earlier (and his wife made him return it) and he has continued to reserch digital projectors for his dedicated HT room. On the previous day, he saw new the Dreamweaver2 and the Infocus 5700 (plus the older 7200). On all of them, he could see pixellation with DVD and even the Ch9 HD loop - defocussing just made for blurry pixels and loss of image sharpness - with a screen size and viewing position similar to mine (these were all his comments, not mine). He had seen my system before with the line doubler and thought DLP was catching up as the DLP projectors were much sharper.


When I showed him some demo material he was familiar with through the 963SA, he couldn't believe what he was seeing. He kept walking up and back to and from the screen, commenting on the lack of pixellation and the smooth, yet detailed image. When I said that digital was getting there but I thought CRT still had the upper hand in overall image quality right now, his comment was "It isn't even close, yet".


This led to us discussing the nature of video and we concluded that where CRT scores (even over a 3 chip DLP) is that it naturally aliases the source pixels. I liken it to the effect of printing an equal resolution image to a dye sublimation printer vs an inkjet and he agreed (he is in the IT industry) - the blending of the adjacent pixels produces an aliasing effect and gives a far smoother and more realistic image without sacrificing detail. This then led us to conclude that what digital projectors need is far higher resolution than DVD - 3x on each axis so that the source pixels can aliased through processing to create the smooth blend. Given this (admittedly speculative) requirement, CRT should remain the premiere choice for HT for a while yet (if you can put up with the considerable inconvenience of the size, mounting, setup etc).


As a final note, one of the US HT gurus, Guy Kuo apparently uses his NEC HT1000 DLP for most viewing to preserve the tubes on his NEC XG CRT for "spongeworthy" events. He says the difference is quite small for most viewing as the HT1000 can be set for quite a high contrast ratio (3000:1), although with some setup restrictions (60" screen for HT1000 vs 100" for XG and same light control needed for both projectors). Digital PJs are getting there for all around use.

And


A film transfer (or digital camera frame capture) is a set of samples from a matrix of point sources. These samples are set to the average colour/brightness for each area surrounding the source points. The pixellation is the visible quantatisation that results from this process. The distinction may seem trivial but it is critical.


A CRT projects each point as a dot that will overlap the adjacent dot point - this is why you get a good blend without losing detail (blurring) as the image is naturally dithered.

Digital projectors project a square - if the focus is tight for a sharp image, then the distinct squares (plus surrounding black for LCDs) are clearly visible and if the image is defocussed enough to blend the squares, then the entire image is blurred.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
thanks for all the insight.
 

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My point wasnt that CRT is better than Digital, although in my opinion it is, but that HT salesmen do the front projection world a disservice with their total lack of knowledge and mis-education of the consumer.


Both technologies are fantastic and have they're place in HT's.


Wes
 

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I've seen that one demoed by Yamaha, it looked very good compared to all the budget (sub $3k) lcd/dlp others were showing. Allthough it was setup properly the PQ was below what I think anyone would want from such an expensive machine. Of course then they told me their DVD 540 player did wonderous job "don't you think?" ...? Why do so many manufacturers/dealers botch so often when it comes to demoing their best stuff, or any stuff?
 

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Because most of those clowns on the showroom floor are fresh from a used car lot. If not that then they got the job because before that they worked summers at Radio Shack.


If another one of them tells me what I'm looking at is "the one I have at home" I'm gonna start cussing.

Not long ago I was in one of those places and looking at an RPTV. Of course the guy says "I have this one at home".

I walked away to look at other stuff. A woman walked in and was looking at a different RPTV. I overhead him tell her "I have this one at home".

I wanted to tell him that if he's bought an example of everything in the store, then he's way overpaid and that means the prices are way too high.

But instead I left. Never to return.
 

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I think that almost all fixed panel displays that I have seen look terrible, with the exception of a Marantz and a Runco DLP, both over $30K in NZ.


Makes me glad I bought a second hand CRT for under a grand.


PS:I could live happile with either of the above DLP projectors - sure they aint as good, but they're good enough for me - I just can't affords em...
 
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