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That's why a don't understand how anyone could call an enclosure that plays to 40 hz a subwoofer. It's a bass cab.
 
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Sony A8H - Yamaha RX-A2000 - Tekton Lore Reference w/Center - HSU surround - Harbottle Audio 18vS
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Discussion Starter #62 (Edited)
That's why a don't understand how anyone could call an enclosure that plays to 40 hz a subwoofer. It's a bass cab.
EXACTLY!!

Subsonic = below sound = below 20hz

EDIT: Infrasonic not Subsonic
I have been gracefully educated by a few good men. I still like my submarine reference tho hahaha

(20hz is generally agreed upon as below human hearing though that frequency is up for debate among many. That is another topic for another thread)

If a “sub” isn’t playing below 20hz with any authority I’m sorry but it’s just not a sub.

That’s like calling a sailboat a submarine. Yes a portion of the hull might be below the surface but if it can’t go fully below the it’s just not a sub...sorry 🤣 Hahaha

But I will say this. I’m jealous of the man sailing a boat thinking he is in a submarine that then goes & buys a TRIESTE!! I’ll let you look that one up 😉
 

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That's why a don't understand how anyone could call an enclosure that plays to 40 hz a subwoofer. It's a bass cab.
I was never under the impression that the Denon box I had was anything resembling a subwoofer. You're right - a bass cab would be a good name for it and other boxes like it. Unfortunately I know a lot of people that buy satellite speaker sets like this and think they have an awesome theatre and don't feel the need for anything more.

I ran frequency sweeps in my theatre yesterday and discovered that I was being generous thinking that the box went down to 40Hz. Output dropped considerably at 50Hz and it didn't play anything below 45Hz so there's a huge spectrum of bass and sub-bass that is not covered at all. I can't wait to hear the difference that the 18vS will make.

What I find really interesting is the big speaker and sub companies that put out expensive subs that only go down to 29Hz (like the Paradigm Defiance X10 for around $1000). At that price, subs should go down to 20Hz at least.
 

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I was never under the impression that the Denon box I had was anything resembling a subwoofer. You're right - a bass cab would be a good name for it and other boxes like it. Unfortunately I know a lot of people that buy satellite speaker sets like this and think they have an awesome theatre and don't feel the need for anything more.

I ran frequency sweeps in my theatre yesterday and discovered that I was being generous thinking that the box went down to 40Hz. Output dropped considerably at 50Hz and it didn't play anything below 45Hz so there's a huge spectrum of bass and sub-bass that is not covered at all. I can't wait to hear the difference that the 18vS will make.

What I find really interesting is the big speaker and sub companies that put out expensive subs that only go down to 29Hz (like the Paradigm Defiance X10 for around $1000). At that price, subs should go down to 20Hz at least.
I honestly hope you get deeper than 20hz in room.
 

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I was never under the impression that the Denon box I had was anything resembling a subwoofer. You're right - a bass cab would be a good name for it and other boxes like it. Unfortunately I know a lot of people that buy satellite speaker sets like this and think they have an awesome theatre and don't feel the need for anything more.
Well, they're certainly missing out on something that others enjoy, though maybe that isn't unfortunate. If they're happy, good for them. Maybe with the extra money and time they can find something else they can enjoy. :)

I ran frequency sweeps in my theatre yesterday and discovered that I was being generous thinking that the box went down to 40Hz. Output dropped considerably at 50Hz and it didn't play anything below 45Hz so there's a huge spectrum of bass and sub-bass that is not covered at all. I can't wait to hear the difference that the 18vS will make.
I have zero experience with their products, but assuming you don't have a wildly bad issue with integration, given what you've been using and looking at the objective analysis of their other products, you'll probably be a darn happy camper who wished that they jumped into the lake a whole lot sooner. Between good placement and paying attention to crossover blend, and maybe a little EQ, there is no reason I can think of that it wouldn't absolutely get down to 20 Hz or lower (if you wanted it to, and maybe you don't, but you never know until you try), and if your reference for deep bass is a 45 Hz limit, it might just blow your skirt up.

What I find really interesting is the big speaker and sub companies that put out expensive subs that only go down to 29Hz (like the Paradigm Defiance X10 for around $1000). At that price, subs should go down to 20Hz at least.
To be fair, keep in mind that if you're looking at DIY projects around here, it's kind of an unfair comparison. A $1,000 sub that sells through a dealer has markup, and advertising and marketing, to help you convince yourself you want one, all of that costs money, storing them so that they're available to ship when you want one, costs money. Typically speaking, on a $1,000 retail product, that means that they've got to be actually able to build that whole shebang for about $200-$250 dollars. For $250, paying yourself minimum wage, can you make something that not only performs as well, and looks as good, and isn't any larger (because people demand small, as far as the general market goes.)

And running with those limitations, there is some sense in them not running their subs flat to 20 Hz. It wouldn't be difficult to get their subwoofers flat to 20 Hz. Just redesign the driver and the enclosure/port system to tune lower, and if necessary, EQ it to flatten it out. Wouldn't even really cost any more money. But, a single 10" woofer that probably isn't an undercover monster when it comes to excursion or power handling (or available power), is going to overload a whole lot sooner if it's trying to dig a whole lot deeper.

I 'fixed' a friends ported Klipsch, which also used a 10 inch driver, partly by getting the port reattached to the box, and partly by putting a connector terminal in the box and completely bypassing the built-in amplifier/filtering unit. In doing the outdoor pseudo 'ground plane' measurements to get a rough idea of what it was capable of doing, so I could set the subsonic filter appropriately, I discovered that it didn't go much below 30 Hz. I played him a 30 Hz tone, for the sake of sharing, and he was shocked at how deep it was. For most people, in their experience with audio equipment, that is really deep, and honestly, with a lot of content, if you had infrasonic playback capability and removed it one day, most people probably wouldn't realize.

To most people, as far as what they actually notice hearing, 30 Hz is incredibly deep, and if you actually asked people to 'Name That Tone', most listeners who haven't actually gotten familiar with what frequencies sound like what, and are going with the yardstick that 20 Hz is considered the low limit of human hearing, would assume that 30 Hz it is deeper than it really is.

So, in short, give the little retail subs a break, they do what they can with what they've got available. :p

And I suspect you're going to love your new world.

I honestly hope you get deeper than 20hz in room.
I would suspect that your hope is realistic, particularly if there is access to a shelving filter :)
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Well this AV Science, so I'll pick that nit.

Subsonic means below the speed of sound; the word you're looking for is infrasonic.
I actually had a convo with @HarbottleAudio who corrected me on that. I was going to go back & edit my post but got busy haha. I have now made an edit...probably not an ideal edit but I admit my mistake.

Yes thank you for the clarification ;)
 

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Ultra Man is pretty awesome.

Stinky Cheese Man isn't too bad either. Some would say even more powerful, depending on the circumstances.
mad props! just waiting for Marvel to pick up Stinky's option, lol

hopefully it wont be DC, though Ben Affleck in "Batman v Stinky Cheese Man" may be more watchable than the previous garbage....

what were we talking about in this thread again? :LOL:
 

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Yes, back on track...

Tim, why did you choose that particular version of 18" driver? I'm skimming around their website, and it looks like they have several that are slightly different.

If Cody wouldn't mind sharing the intent and differences in target applications between them, that might help some of us make up our mind, should we lean forward to the 'jump' line. I would imagine that for most of us, it's a pretty good chunk of change, that merits a thoughtful selection.
 

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Yes, back on track...

Tim, why did you choose that particular version of 18" driver? I'm skimming around their website, and it looks like they have several that are slightly different.

If Cody wouldn't mind sharing the intent and differences in target applications between them, that might help some of us make up our mind, should we lean forward to the 'jump' line. I would imagine that for most of us, it's a pretty good chunk of change, that merits a thoughtful selection.
vS is "studio"... 50/50 music movies operates from approx 165hz down.
It's a bit more balanced but offers a bit more (approx 1.5 db more from 50hz down) in the low end over the 18.0 funk given equal amplification.

vX is "HT". Sub 100hz and have about 2-3 db over the vS below 50hz.

vXR is serious "HT". Sub 70hz and has about 1.5-2 db over the vX db more below 50hz.

The idea is that there are incremental steps for more low end output given every kind of main from bookshelf to big floor standing, all while using 111L as a constant.

Tim's driver is a custom version with a solid cf cone and some suspension tweaks. It offers cleaner performance and cuts certain types of distortion that allows a bit more upper bass extension in a 111L box.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
Tim, why did you choose that particular version of 18" driver? I'm skimming around their website, and it looks like they have several that are slightly different.
As Cody mentioned, the vS is a very balanced subwoofer. I use my system more for music typically. I’d say 75% music 25% movies. So I wanted that uppper end extension. I cross it over to my mains 120-200hz depending on my mood. I opted for the custom solid CF cone to add that little extra umph in the low end & to work well in my desired enclosure size.

I’ve known the capabilities of Harbottle’s subs for some years now. Having heard a few of their subwoofer models about 2-3yrs ago when I visited Canada & stopped by their manufacturing warehouse. Cody was kind enough to setup a few demos for me. I couldn’t believe how powerful a single 18” sounded inside a massive warehouse.

But that wasn’t the main thing that struck me. While listening to a 24” (I forget the model) in a 2.1 setup with music, I walked up to the sub, RIGHT up to it. While it slammed me in the chest, barely able to breath haha...the clarity of the music shined right through. It was a “look over at Cody with jaw to the floor” moment. No exaggeration.

Look I’m not a guy who makes a lot of money, I’ll be up front about that. But I’ll tell you this. From that day on it was my goal to get one of their subs in my home. I’m super stoked it’s now a reality :)
 

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Tim, that's a pretty good endorsement.

Followup question. Do you guys know anything about the longevity of the surround materials? I had some Klipsch speakers that had fancy butyl rubber, and were supposed to last forever, and fell apart in about ten years. I was able to get them re-foamed, and my in-laws are still enjoying them, but it makes me wonder.

While I'm dancing on this oh so fun fence looking for a place to land, it is one of many parameters related to the comfort zone. It'd be nice to know if there are drivers out there still running 20 years later, or at least, using materials that are used in drivers that are still running 20 years after manufacture.
 

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Tim, that's a pretty good endorsement.

Followup question. Do you guys know anything about the longevity of the surround materials? I had some Klipsch speakers that had fancy butyl rubber, and were supposed to last forever, and fell apart in about ten years. I was able to get them re-foamed, and my in-laws are still enjoying them, but it makes me wonder.

While I'm dancing on this oh so fun fence looking for a place to land, it is one of many parameters related to the comfort zone. It'd be nice to know if there are drivers out there still running 20 years later, or at least, using materials that are used in drivers that are still running 20 years after manufacture.
The trick is to take care of your stuff. Don't use cleaners or anything on your speakers especially the drivers since cleaners may deteriorate the materials. Just a clean plain microfiber towel or swifter rag that picks up dust. If you have dirt that is hard to come up, just use a damp microfiber and gently wipe.
 

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Or, put them in a BP4 or BP6 and never worry about cleaning them 😉
 

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We recommend at most a slightly water damp cloth or a dry duster. Chemical cleaners will void warranty as they will strip and react to the driver materials.
We have been making drivers for 11/12 years and there are no issues with the surround materials thus far. Although some have allowed extremely dry conditions in their home and their Funk product finish has suffered as a result, the driver still functions as designed.
Another key to keeping your driver in good condition, avoid direct sunlight as much as possible. Sunlight coming through glass windows will fade flooring and furniture, it will dry and bleach your surround as well.
 

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The trick is to take care of your stuff. Don't use cleaners or anything on your speakers especially the drivers since cleaners may deteriorate the materials. Just a clean plain microfiber towel or swifter rag that picks up dust. If you have dirt that is hard to come up, just use a damp microfiber and gently wipe.
Sounds good. I don't use chemical cleaning products on anything that isn't a kitchen or bathroom surface short of a bit of dihydrogen oxide to moisten a paper towel. Heck, I barely even clean. I'm also buried in a forest where we get almost no direct sunlight, so I think we're good on that front. I never thought about using a microfiber cloth. I use them with lenses, so I guess why not? I suppose foam and rubber is certainly softer than glass, even if I really don't care if they scatter light.

And course, with answers come more questions...

On the LDLC approach, I'm starting to appreciate the compression graphs. Compared to the UM18, while the distortion sweep is a bit lower, the dynamic performance is a lot more... dynamic, but also more consistent with frequency. While the compression curves of the UM-18 change shape substantially, anchoring at resonance, the GUV18 keeps more or less the same shape, and overall keeps within low compression over a broader range.

There is a little wiggle deviating significantly from the low output reference at 42 Hz. I was wondering if there was any insight into that? The fact that it tracks pretty consistently at all other higher levels suggests that it might be perhaps more of an anomaly either at the low output level, or maybe just a measurement quirk. Often, when you see something drastic happen with the actual output response, it will show up on the impedance curve, as it does with the UM-18 at 175 Hz and 500 Hz, and there are corresponding undesirables that would discourage higher crossover points, which will bring me to the next topic, but I'm going to exercise my self-control and pose one (or a limited group) of questions at a time. :)
 
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