AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After hearing a fellow avs members system I want a bit more. Mainly a better tactile response from my subwoofer but some better definition is always a plus.

A little background about my system. Some things can be changed, some can't, and I think more than anything the problem is with my room. Starting with the brunt of the bass system I have a diy elemental designs 19ov.2 18" subwoofer in a 13 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 15 hz backed by an ep2500 giving it 1300 watts. Its positioned right behind my couch and gives a nice shaking effect to the couch, but not the rest of the room.


Here is where it gets tricky. My room is very hard to drive. Its carpet and padding directly over concrete. This makes "floor shaking nearly impossible without actual TNT. My room is also a good mid sized room at 4200 cubic feet. Bass is flat in room to a little below tuning at 15 hz, and spl levels are up to about 115 db at all frequencies. It can get pretty loud, but only shakes the couch. No other seat gets the effect.


On the definition side of it the receiver I have is probably to blame. My mains can be crossed as low as 60 hz, but my receiver is old and only crosses over down to 100 hz. This I can change and am planning to hopefully sooner than later. I think a lower crossover will help with this.

So back to the tactile performance, I am thinking that a raised floor is my only good choice. I don't want bass shakers. I think I could make a floor for two or three hundred bucks and that is really what I want and was wondering if its a good idea and if so is there any specific way I should go about it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
868 Posts
Damn you've achived apparently perfect response and completely eliminated environmental resonances for the most part and now are looking for ways to break it. We audio enthusiasts are a tweeky group. lol!


Hell, if you want broke I'll trade you my house and I'll come put up with perfection.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,212 Posts
I'm with ugly on this one. The "shaking effect" can add to the material, but you generally only want the main seating to have this effect, the rest of the room should not respond, mechanically, to the audio.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,097 Posts
What they said!


My gosh, I sure hope you can't get a solid concrete slab to shake!



And if you build a raised floor, anything that sits on that floor will shake. How would you keep from transmitting the floor vibration to the walls and the rest of the house?



Bad idea. Just make the couch shake.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Oh believe me, its far from perfection. The sound is a bit muddy, that's what I attribute to the high crossover. Once the new receiver is bought I will try out 60-80 hz for a crossover setting.


Perfection with me would be accomplished with a good mix of the following:


On the top end completely seemless integration with the mains.


Further down the sound spectrum a smooth upper bass that's sound is completely distinguishable as the frequency lowers.


Midbass should be tight, punchy and powerful. Feel it kicking in the chest powerful.


Lower end should be effortless, yet also powerful. At the low thirties down to twenty hz it should still be audible, but have the ability to shake the room.


Lower than 20 hz should flap your pants legs and give the sensation as very loud but distant explosions or thunder. The type that would shake your windows.


Over the entire frequency range it should be very clean sounding. No additional artifacts or distortions. Much like what you would get from a properly designed bandpass enbclosure. All you hear is bass, no speaker.


Also there should be huge headroom. The ability to play upwards of 130 db so that when reference levels of 115 db are played the sub isn't being pushed to its limit.


This would be the perfect subwoofer experience for me.


As far building the floor and keeping it separated fromthe rest of the house, I have some ideas I picked up from various places. The floor would start by isolation pads being placed on the floor with 2x4's placed on top of them. The actual floor panels would go on top of these with insulation between the 2x4's. Keep the floor separated from the wall by having a half inch to inch gap between the two.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,212 Posts
It sounds like you need some room treatments, not more power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts
You say you do not want any transducers for the 5Hz to 30Hz content, why?


Building 2" thick individual platforms JUST for all your chairs/couches with 8 or more hockey pucks used as feet underneath each chair will give you the subtle vibration you may lack.


I simply glued 3/4" plywood together to do mine, I wrapped it in black fabric, added all the hockey pucks for the feet and its perfected.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod1937 /forum/post/17023721


It sounds like you need some room treatments, not more power.

Not needing more power necessarily, although the added headroom would be nice. When I had my subwoofer meet a few months ago there was a wide range of subs here in my room. Ranging from $250 bic subwoofer with a single 12" driver in a ported enclosure to the diy subs with the top output performer being the re audio xxx 18" to the pro audio stuff from worx and danley including the th50 none really shook my room. The th50 hit 128 or 129 db in my room with only a few hundred watts to it and it pressurized the room nicely as well as literally moved my pants legs. I think I could make a whole wall of subs in this room and it wouldn't shake, so no amput of power would help me out other than headroom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod1937 /forum/post/17023721


It sounds like you need some room treatments, not more power.

Sorry, made that last post and didn't even think about the room treatments. I have none now unless you count thick blackout curtains but those wouldn't help with the bass. What would be good bass room treatments and what exactly would they do? Would it clean the sound that much?


The danleys were great. The th50 was my favorite. Can get louder than any other single 15" I have heard and it sounds very clean. Everyone loved it at the meet. If you have the means to get one, and a wife that doesn't care if you have a huge enclosure in your room I would get one. There is one for sale now on hometheatershack. Just to give you some insight if you are not familiar with the th50, they use just 4 of the for the entire subwoofer section in an imax theater.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Wow, sounds like your house is built very well.



Sounds like you have a lot more expertise than me, but have you looked at the "Seismic Sofa" project over at Parts Express? It may give you the "bass shaking" feel you want without having to get a refridgerator size subwoofer. That in combination with cleaning up your crossover like you said, may be what you're looking for?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have looked at the seismic sofa, but it uses bass shakers. I will say that while I don't like the idea of bass shakers, I am not completely against it. To do that I would need another amp and just generally more money than I want to spend. I can do the floor on my own for little money. This is still a ways off if I do it at all, but it never hurts to plan.


My house is just a starter home. I am only 30 and we have been here for 3 years. The room was a two car garage before we moved in and as soon as we moved in we had it finished. It has a utility closet and a large walk in closet. Its around 22 x 22 x 8.5. Concrete floor under the carpet and padding is just part of the concrete slab foundation.


The whole reason I am to this point is going to the other members house and hearing his system. Granted there are a lot of variables from his to mine. His room is much smaller. I am guessing 16 x 12 x 8 and he has a crawl space I think. This helps with his shaking. He has a svs 20-39 cylinder and even though its just a 12" with a smaller amp and enclosure, it really kicks in that room. To top it off it sounds a lot better. Now he does have his mains crossed at 60 hz, and his mains are much better than mine (I have athena bookshelves and I can't remember what mains he is using, but he has klipsch surrounds including the reference series tower from a few years ago with the dual 10's) so he has better low end out of his speakers than I do.


My planned course of events is probably upgrading my receiver first, then maybe more sub for headroom (if you are not familiar about the advantages of headroom find someone who has it and you will believe), and upgrade my speakers. Somewhere in there I will get a front projector.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
I have athena bookshelves


Its definitely your mains, they may not be the entire problem but they are a problem. I believe your sub is just fine but you lack that punch that so many others lack too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
My planned course of events is probably upgrading my receiver first, then maybe more sub for headroom (if you are not familiar about the advantages of headroom find someone who has it and you will believe), and upgrade my speakers. Somewhere in there I will get a front projector.

Upgrade your main speakers before anything else, you should be really spending 70-80% of your $$$ on your speakers. The receivers are a dime a dozen (well they cost more but there is zero reason to over spend on them).


btw, I like buttkickers because they go down to 5Hz. I only use them for 5Hz to 25Hz and I have it dailed so that only during the most intense scenes will I feel the impact. I have them even though I have 4 15" subs in my room too. They are great when things are turned down and the subs do not shake the room.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,108 Posts
Brandon,

My room is 18x12x8 and it does have a crawl space. The day that you visited I was using LSA1's and LCR center. The rears used on that day were RF7's. I wish that the RF7's and RC7 had been up front that day. That set up is much more dynamic for HT.


The room does not respond to the shaking as jarrod1937 eluded to. Pictures are hanging straight. The sensation is felt in the seating and often the pants legs but no wall or picture movement.


Penn, I have to agree about overspendig on reveivers. However, i would not agree that all are created equal. When I used receivers I recall that some distorted the sub more than others.


Brandon I look forward to another visit when you have the time. Maybe I will learn how to make BBQ like you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have heard my speakers in a very open showroom with a better receiver and I can assure you, they can be better, but the receiver made them a lot better than what I have now. My receiver is a pioneer that's probably 7 or 8 years old. I am not sure the dac's are up to todays standards and I am sure the power is lacking. Comparing to other newer receivers I have heard this one I have just doesn't cut it.


I am glad you joined the discussion Alford. I still want to try to bring my subwoofer up to your place just to see what it can do in a smaller room with no concrete floor. I am with you and Penn in thinking that its not worth spending heavily on receivers. I am looking at the onkyo 600 series. Either the new 607 or as far back as the 605. Those are in my price range and I like what they offer. Close to quoted power, clean sound, decodes the newer audio formats, has auto setup, and on screen menus.


Making decent bbq is almost just like home theater. The first taste you get is great. After that you are on a constant quest on trying to make it better. You can get in cheap, but if you want it on a big scale it can cost multi thousands of dollars. While I am in desperate need of a new smoker (the two I have now are just not cutting it) I would really like a large trailer smoker to start catering and hopefully roll that into a restaurant one day. I have a friend that has a larger smoker and we did a charity event at a UT frat house. We sold to the general public at a football game and it was great. That was the single best bbq that I have ever made and ever eaten. We had a large group from Memphis come through and eat some and they said it bested any bbq joint they have down there. That made me want to do it that much more to have a ringing endorsement like that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTMAN21 /forum/post/17026652


Penn, I have to agree about overspendig on reveivers. However, i would not agree that all are created equal. When I used receivers I recall that some distorted the sub more than others.

.


I would like to see the data on it because that doesnt make sense to me pre-outs for subs have the lowest distortion in the whole chain, meaning the subwoofer box/driver has more distortion, the amp for the sub has more distortion. Saying the sub preout from one receiver to another has more audible distortion has me wondering if you had the trim levels completely different?


I would agree that preout voltages can be different and therefore we have to set the sub trim very high which may create more distortion but I haven't found a definitive answer on that.


btw, when I say they are a dime a dozen...Im still talking about AVRs over a certain price point, the laws of dimished returns kick in hard for AVRs once we are at a certain price range after that there isnt truely much improvements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,937 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I don't know about data to back it up, but I do remember in my car audio 130-140 db days I could tell a difference in how clean it would sound when a better line out voltage was present. I started with a pioneer head unit that out out 1.8 volts on the pre out. I moved from there to an eclipse head unit with 5 volts on the pre out and could hear a difference. It wasn't a huge difference in fact barely audible. When measured I would get 1-2 db extra with the same setup and new head unit. I don't know if this was just the voltage, but it was just that little difference that if you had two amps playing side by side with the same material and one was playing 2 db hotter and you were asked to pick blindly which you prefer, you would almost always pick the louder one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,340 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash /forum/post/17031856


if you had two amps playing side by side with the same material and one was playing 2 db hotter and you were asked to pick blindly which you prefer, you would almost always pick the louder one.

This is a well known effect, and one of the reasons that in a blind test levels need to be matched or the louder one will always be picked as 'better'.


It is trivially easy for a receiver to swing several volts RMS as most if not all will be designed using opamps for the analogue stages so there is no reason at all for any preout, sub or otherwise, to offer any meaningful distortion at all. Unless it was incompetently designed or it was an intended effect.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,108 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 /forum/post/17033784


This is a well known effect, and one of the reasons that in a blind test levels need to be matched or the louder one will always be picked as 'better'.


It is trivially easy for a receiver to swing several volts RMS as most if not all will be designed using opamps for the analogue stages so there is no reason at all for any preout, sub or otherwise, to offer any meaningful distortion at all. Unless it was incompetently designed or it was an intended effect.
nless
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top