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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I am all set on getting a 60 inch used Kuro (don't ask how & where :), plus potential seller has been extremely flaky so far) but now after a few auditions, am having second thoughts.


My uncertainty is related to the size of the Pioneer Kuro, not its unmatched PQ. During my various auditions, not of Kuro of course but of various 60 inch Samsung/LG/etc. sets next to a Panasonic 65, I've invariably found that viewing on the 65 incher, whether sports or movies, is significantly more involving than the 60 sets. Whenever I switched from the 65 to 60, I've found the smaller set to be a big letdown.


I am very surprised that the 5 inch diagonal size increase creates such a significantly more immersive/involving viewing experience. I LOVE the humongous screen size of the 65 Pany and now think I will miss it if I go ahead with the Kuro! So my questions: Has anyone moved from 60 Pioneer to 65 Panasonic 3D? Do you miss the PQ of the Pioneer? Size versus PQ, this dilemma is a lot more difficult than I thought!

I will be using this plasma primarily for cable programs, some sports, my son's xbox games. (I watch movies mainly on a JVC projector and have a RS40 coming.) I already have a small Pioneer Kuro and am fairly "nutty" :) about photography so the Pioneer PQ, I know and understand; primarily talking about size here.
 

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I went from a 65" CRT-based rear projection set to a 60" Elite Kuro. Not quite the same thing, I know, but once I saw the much better Kuro picture, I didn't miss the extra size at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy /forum/post/19596669


I went from a 65" CRT-based rear projection set to a 60" Elite Kuro. Not quite the same thing, I know, but once I saw the much better Kuro picture, I didn't miss the extra size at all.

Thanks for confirming my suspicion. Perhaps I am different from most here
, but I find 60 so very disappointing in comparison to 65. Perhaps more so than most; but I don't know.


The other reason I am leaning towards Panasonic is that on my 8G plasma, for my currrent use, mostly NOT in pitch dark environment, I am not using settings (D-Nice's, etc.) that would maximize "blackness" at all as these settings don't have enough "pop." In other words, could it be that for what I use this plasma for -- games/tv programs/sports in the evening with room light on, there is no advantage to Kuro? And here therefore the 65's bigger size provides an overwhelming advantage?


Dilemma, dilemma!
 

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I would be surprised if you would end up being disappointed in the 65VT25.
 

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The thing I have found from experience in life is whenever I go to buy somthing my initial reaction to it is almost always right. Whenever I have tried to force a purchase of somthing because I thought I would grow to like it Ive been wrong.I would go with the 65 inch tv for sure in your case.
 

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Size seems very important to you, so that may suggest you will be happier with the panny. However, a properly set up 141 or 151 will be much better pq wise than a VT25 for games/tv programs/sports in the evening with room light on, especially a year later when the panny black levels double.
 

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I haven't compared the two options you're considering, but I would rather sit closer to my 50" Kuro than get a bigger, lesser quality display. It would not be a difficult decision. Maybe your setup won't allow for that, but that would be my preference. I would also consider a Mitsubishi DLP rear projection unit, of all things, since you can get a 70+ inch quite reasonably, though I understand reliability is an issue.


If your space allows for it, what I would do is get the Kuro and then add a low-end projector and pull down screen. You'd get the best of both worlds with top notch picture quality for everyday viewing with the Kuro and then big screen impact with the projector. This is similar to my setup (50" Kuro and 92" projector screen). I absolutely would not do without either one. The versatility is very compelling and worth the additional effort in setup.


If you think 60" is disappointing, believe me, you'll be impressed by 90+ inches. The impact of a really big screen is just not something I could give up at this point. In fact, in my current setup, I considered going to a dedicated home theater with no alternative display besides the projector. Ultimately, I needed more of a mixed-use space, though.


So, I recommend a projector if you can add it to your plans or find a way to add it later. I would say that the Kuro is another one of those things that you just can't look back from, though. Have you been able to compare the two plasmas in the same space and/or with the same source material?


Still, if size is your biggest concern (I knew a girl like that once) and you can't or won't do a projector, give some thought to a DLP rear projection set. Just be sure to get an extended warranty...they seem to have some real, but generally fixable, reliability issues.


Good luck and keep us updated.
 

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I would just sit one foot closer with the 60 incher.


but if you have a far viewing distance... the 65 might be the better pick.


do a side by side.... then decide! (the only way to be 100% sure!!!!!)
 

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Have you auditioned the sets side by side or in the same store? if you have, once you get the 60" home and in your room, you will likely not miss the 65 incher at all as you will have no point of reference for it in your room and the 60 inch set will look plenty big.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah /forum/post/19600888


I haven't compared the two options you're considering, but I would rather sit closer to my 50" Kuro than get a bigger, lesser quality display. It would not be a difficult decision. Maybe your setup won't allow for that, but that would be my preference. I would also consider a Mitsubishi DLP rear projection unit, of all things, since you can get a 70+ inch quite reasonably, though I understand reliability is an issue.


If your space allows for it, what I would do is get the Kuro and then add a low-end projector and pull down screen. You'd get the best of both worlds with top notch picture quality for everyday viewing with the Kuro and then big screen impact with the projector. This is similar to my setup (50" Kuro and 92" projector screen). I absolutely would not do without either one. The versatility is very compelling and worth the additional effort in setup.


If you think 60" is disappointing, believe me, you'll be impressed by 90+ inches. The impact of a really big screen is just not something I could give up at this point. In fact, in my current setup, I considered going to a dedicated home theater with no alternative display besides the projector. Ultimately, I needed more of a mixed-use space, though.


So, I recommend a projector if you can add it to your plans or find a way to add it later. I would say that the Kuro is another one of those things that you just can't look back from, though. Have you been able to compare the two plasmas in the same space and/or with the same source material?


Still, if size is your biggest concern (I knew a girl like that once) and you can't or won't do a projector, give some thought to a DLP rear projection set. Just be sure to get an extended warranty...they seem to have some real, but generally fixable, reliability issues.


Good luck and keep us updated.

Everyone thanks for the detailed and helpful replies. Very interesting discussion.


Yes I agree with you regarding the big screen impact and actually do have a separate hometheater room with 120" screen and JVC projector (I have a JVC 3D RS40 coming to replace my current aging one, also a JVC Dila.). This 60" plasma will be in the family room for "regular" tv programming, some sports, and my son's xbox games, etc. It will be the work horse and that's why I would like to be careful with picking the right one.


I have a 42 Kuro (950) so am aware of the Kuro quality. However, even on this Kuro, I don't use setting that would maximize "blackness," (with some background light on, as is the use for this tv, there is just not enough pop). I would assume that's where the dilemma is: If you don't use this tv for movies in complete darkness, is the Kuro worth trading for the size?


BTW, not the point of this thread but yes I also do recommend any plasma owner if you have the room to try a projector -- no plasma could have the impact of a 8 foot screen. You could set up a big screen system for MUCH MUCH less than you might have imagined.
 

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I can see I'm preaching to the choir on projectors.



One more thought...I understand that the Panasonic NeoPDPs (now 2nd generation in the 2010 models) are, in part, designed to compete with LCDs in terms of brightness. Perhaps that's part of what's adding to the appeal/pop of the 65" Panasonic for you. Pioneer never had that goal in mind. For 3D, this is doubly important (or maybe triply important...
). I have always been a fan of brighter projectors, so I wouldn't fault you if that was part of what attracts you to the Panasonic, though I find the Kuro's brightness to be more than acceptable.


I say trust your instincts.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah /forum/post/19603186


One more thought...I understand that the Panasonic NeoPDPs (now 2nd generation in the 2010 models) are, in part, designed to compete with LCDs in terms of brightness. Perhaps that's part of what's adding to the appeal/pop of the 65" Panasonic for you. Pioneer never had that goal in mind. For 3D, this is doubly important (or maybe triply important...
). I have always been a fan of brighter projectors, so I wouldn't fault you if that was part of what attracts you to the Panasonic, though I find the Kuro's brightness to be more than acceptable.

??? D-Nice calibrated my 600M to ouput almost 47 ftL in ISFccc Day. And here's a post from Kevin Miller, where he says he couldn't get a 58" V25 to output more than 27 ftL in ISFccc Day without running into problems.


So the Kuro is the clear winner over the Panasonic in brightness as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip /forum/post/19602748


Have you auditioned the sets side by side or in the same store? if you have, once you get the 60" home and in your room, you will likely not miss the 65 incher at all as you will have no point of reference for it in your room and the 60 inch set will look plenty big.

Very good point. At first it was a side by side comparison that got my attention, but as in all things video, once you've become conscious/aware of a "flaw" (in this case, size), I think it's impossible to not think or know about it in subsequent viewings.

As much as it pains me, I think I will go with my instinct and get Panasonic's second generation 3D 65 incher (March 2012?). When it comes to invoking an immersive/involving experience, a 65 set is impressively humongous and does dwarf everything around it. I am really just so surprised what a difference 5 inches makes
. Hope my experience will help those trying to decide regarding what size plasma to get: Take a look for yourself and keep the size factor in mind (bigger is better). LOL I am having way too much fun with this thread.


Noah (OT), yes brightness is everything in 3D! I believe one common criticism of JVC's latest 3D projectors is that brightness is plenty for 2D, but might be lacking in 3D, to the point that I *might* have to replace my beloved Stewart Grayhawk screen for something with better than 0.9 gain.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by p59teitel
??? D-Nice calibrated my 600M to ouput almost 47 ftL in ISFccc Day. And here's a post from Kevin Miller, where he says he couldn't get a 58" V25 to output more than 27 ftL in ISFccc Day without running into problems.


So the Kuro is the clear winner over the Panasonic in brightness as well.
Thanks for the correction.


Just to reiterate my position, I'm not complaining...I've never found my Kuro lacking in brightness. I've always had plenty of headroom to dial it up if I wanted to.


I do suspect that peak 100-IRE brightness may be greater on the Panasonic NeoPDP panels, ignoring white crush or grayscale. Yes, those are non-trivial caveats for us, but, unfortunately, I think the uncalibrated/cool color temp performance is probably more important to 90% of Panasonic's end users. That's not to say that these displays shouldn't be made to perform well at 6500K. I also doubt the showroom settings give much consideration to grayscale tracking or clipping the ends of the IRE scale.


Almost every review mentions that the THX mode on the Panasonics (used to produce the numbers you're citing) is dim to the point of being nearly unusable. I wonder if there's some power limiting or weird processing at work that causes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga
Noah (OT), yes brightness is everything in 3D! I believe one common criticism of JVC's latest 3D projectors is that brightness is plenty for 2D, but might be lacking in 3D, to the point that I *might* have to replace my beloved Stewart Grayhawk screen for something with better than 0.9 gain.
Yes, I think I've read that about the JVC's. Have you demo'ed any 3D projectors yet?


Seems like gray screens have kind of fallen out of favor or just started being unnecessary as contrast ratio has improved. I really enjoy my Infocus SP7210 with a 92" Elite gray screen (I forget the exact name of the material). It's not a state-of-the-art setup by any means, of course, but I have been very happy and haven't gotten the upgrade bug with projectors in quite the same way I have with other gear. I went from an Infocus X1 to the 7210 about 3 years ago and that was a huge jump. Barring any failure (knock on wood), I'll likely wait until the
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah /forum/post/19605034


Yes, I think I've read that about the JVC's. Have you demo'ed any 3D projectors yet?

Seems like gray screens have kind of fallen out of favor or just started being unnecessary as contrast ratio has improved. I really enjoy my Infocus SP7210 with a 92" Elite gray screen (I forget the exact name of the material). It's not a state-of-the-art setup by any means, of course, but I have been very happy and haven't gotten the upgrade bug with projectors in quite the same way I have with other gear. I went from an Infocus X1 to the 7210 about 3 years ago and that was a huge jump. Barring any failure (knock on wood), I'll likely wait until the


OT


Hi Noah, thanks for your helpful input. I have not followed screen or projector forum discussion for a long time (since I got my JVC Dila 8-9 years ago -- got sidetracked into the hobby of Porsche
.) Does no one use or sell grey screen anymore? IIRC, at the time that I bought it, the Greyhawk was considered among the best because it provides the darkest black, is that no longer true? Does it still provide an advantage, at least when it comes to black level?


As far as demoing a 3D projector, no. I love my JVC Dila (color, saturation, black -- yeah right, why am I picking Pana over Kuro
) and just implicitly trust that the latest generation will be the best. I recently moved and therefore it's convenient to replace my old JVC Dila, so I joined the AVS group buy without any live demo. It should be here, hopefully before Christmas.

They have become so cheap it's unbelieveable. The RS40 I am getting will be 1000 less than what I would pay for a used Kuro 151!


Thanks again.
 

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Generally speaking, I have had my KURO 6020 since right before Pio called it quits. Since that time, every one of my friends have installed newer displays and HTs. Some are 50"-58", some 60", one is a panny 65". They run the gamut from Sony, to Samsung, to Panasonic. These are set up in different homes and rooms than what I'm used to. And, some are LCD/LED sets.


I can say without hesitation, my KURO still is the best looking of the bunch, by a fair margin, regardless of technology used, or size of display.


IF I were going to go bigger (which I'm not planning any time soon), I'd go real BIG (as in projector big-100"+).


Anything else wouldn't be significant to me.
 
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