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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let's see,


Panny 58V10 now going out the door at closeout pricing. Same for the Samsung 58B650, 58B860.


Each having it's own issues which are the following:


Panny ---


Green tinting in greyscale needs calibration either Pro or DIY

THX color issue requires FW fix or possibly new A-board?

Awesome blacks at purchase after undergoing MLL changes likely to result in blacks no better than competition


Feel free to add anything I missed or correct anything wrong


Sammy ---


Panel buzzing, major, minor or none

Cinema Smooth broken, [email protected] does not work at 96Hz without Brightness/Picture changes but does function at 60Hz which may bring judder with BluRay


Same deal as with Panny - feel free...


Question?


How does this crap ever get out of the factory? Some of it is so obvious it makes you wonder if they only hire the deaf, dumb and blind for QC. Why do any of us part with our hard earned dollars for this crap? And then after spending said cash try to rationalize it ain't so bad.


I am determined to stay in the perpetual holding pattern, watching my 5 year old calibrated 42" ED until something comes along which doesn't subject me, as the purchaser, to feeling like a used tissue after my money is gone. Minor stuff is no sweat but major issues like the stuff listed above is just unacceptable. Makes me long for CRTs.


Thank God for patience ... although it is wearing thin.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/18298949


I am determined to stay in the perpetual holding pattern, watching my 5 year old calibrated 42" ED until something comes along which doesn't subject me, as the purchaser, to feeling like a used tissue after my money is gone.


Thank God for patience ... although it is wearing thin.

I am also in the holding pattern, watching a 32" 480i JVC CRT.

I don't want to get an el cheapo 32~42" TV just to get some HD because it will make it much harder to get Wife Approval on a 54~60" TV when they get it right.


I'm keeping my eyes on the VT25 testing when D-Nice begins it...but it's not going to kill me to wait until CES 2011.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Same here. Originally wanted the 54V10. Whew! (Wipes sweat off brow)


Sooooo, I'm also waiting for the 54 or 58VT25. But then I ask myself, why? I made it this far. 2011 will be here before you know it.
 

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I suppose when you cut prices, you gotta cut costs. QC appears to be at the top of that list.
 

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I honestly don't see what the major problem is. Panasonic and Samsung churn out millions of cheap displays. You don't have to deal with these problems if you just pay more for a quality built brand. You get what you pay for. Pioneers don't suffer from most of these issues, save for a minor bit of buzz, which some people are more sensitive to than others. And of course the buzz can be diminished a great deal by using energy save 2 mode.


So I think people just need to lower their expectations. They want Pioneer Kuro quality in a $1000-$1500 display. For people who answer that they paid $2000-$2500 for a V10, well, then all I can say is you should have shopped around some more, because for $2500 you could have bought a Kuro, and not a crummy Panny.


You get what you pay for.


If things like a broken Cinema Smooth or a yellowish and dim THX bother you, just pay up and get a Pioneer! At least we have choices. We can find a decent display if we are simply willing to pay the higher price.


And I won't buy excuses from (most) people who say they can't locate a Pioneer. They are out there if one wants one bad enough. A few can still be had if you look hard enough. You just have to pay up if you want that extra quality.


The rising black level wouldn't be such a big issue if people would be patient and wait for the right deals to come along, or if they get rid of their displays every year and upgrade to the newer models. They could sell their plasma for not much less than they paid for it, and roll into something else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Really don't care that much about the pricing although I can see why you might think that from the original post.


Pioneer is wonderful in many respects but that is only compared to what passes as competition. Would it be nice to get Pioneer blacks in another brand that can charge a bit less due to economies of scale? You betcha. But I don't expect it. I do expect black level to stay (reasonably) put however, in whatever brand I buy, allowing for the normal effects of phosphor aging.


But Pioneer having only 50" and 60" to pick from is a negative for me and, I suspect, many others. So there are issues other than simple PQ involved. Like shiney black bezels and ridiculously reflective screens on that much visual real estate. What is so difficult about making a matte bezel? Nothing, except mindless yearly (and in Pioneer's case, brand) styling cues.


Yes, anyone can track down a Pio if they want one badly enough, new or used. The question remains, after all of these years of product development, both in terms of performance and other functional issues, why should they have to?


To me, it is more than someone simply picking up the Pioneer mantle. I would be happy with less if it simply worked as it should.


FYI, I have Pioneers available from BB where I am, including the Pro 101 NIB, which I could've even gotten as a demo for a ridiculously low price. But don't want 50". Still, the best PQ I have seen in 2009 models is the Sammy B860. Most Pio looking set in terms of PQ considerations other than deepest blacks IMHO.
 

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Panasonic:


1) Needs calibration if you think so. People come on here and rave about a tv. Then somebody chimes in. "Oh yeah???? Turn this to that, put that on this, get this Bluray disk and go to 1:20. SEE, SEE"! Then are poor hero tells everyone he's bringing it back. So when a half dozen reviews say TV A is fabulous and a couple of forum cowboys say it has bad green adjustment, what would you go by.


2) "The blacks". Yeah by all means I would worry about a "problem" that the mfg says is by design, that 2 people have to an excessive degree, and is being screamed about by dozens of forum cowboys who don't even own the set.


Meanwhile, most people that start posts like this buy a TV and crank up the brightness and saturation to silly levels and tell all their friends that the TV they bought is the favorite of forum cowboys around the country.

Quote:
I suppose when you cut prices, you gotta cut costs. QC appears to be at the top of that list.

Great except Samsung and Panasonic are the lowest in problem/defect rate in Plasmas and Panasonic is the best of all the major makers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by adone36 /forum/post/18299513


Panasonic:


1) Needs calibration if you think so. People come on here and rave about a tv. Then somebody chimes in. "Oh yeah???? Turn this to that, put that on this, get this Bluray disk and go to 1:20. SEE, SEE"! Then are poor hero tells everyone he's bringing it back. So when a half dozen reviews say TV A is fabulous and a couple of forum cowboys say it has bad green adjustment, what would you go by.


2) "The blacks". Yeah by all means I would worry about a "problem" that the mfg says is by design, that 2 people have to an excessive degree, and is being screamed about by dozens of forum cowboys who don't even own the set.


Meanwhile, most people that start posts like this buy a TV and crank up the brightness and saturation to silly levels and tell all their friends that the TV they bought is the favorite of forum cowboys around the country.




Great except Samsung and Panasonic are the lowest in problem/defect rate in Plasmas and Panasonic is the best of all the major makers.


Ya I went through 3 Sammy's that had incredible loud buzzing. Judging by all the issues posted on here from Samsung and Panasonic, I went with an LG. The forums are riddled with issues from these two manufacturers. I don't understand why people say they are so great. When I was TV shopping I should have stayed away from these forums and just gone with my first instinct (the LG). Would have saved myself alot of headaches, especially after making statements such as Sammy and Panny are the best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
adone36,


None of any issues mentioned are ethereal vapor. Unfortunately they are all quite real and still on display at any electronics store. These are not minor issues. They are major, which is kinda the point of the post, other than a self-indulgent rant.


Every, and I mean every, Panny V series I see on display has green tinted blacks, clear as day, unless the greyscale has been calibrated. This includes 58"s and 65"s. Same for yellowish THX. If brand spanking new production 58"s and 65"s are not showing this, then the factory has been busy getting at least something right. Comparative blacks are also a sorry sight, with or without calibration. These are viewed in darker rooms. No mistaking it. Now again, if the newest production 58"s and 65"s don't elevate more than what is already reported in the Black level charts, that is livable. Bottom line, you can take all the 'early usage reviews in China' and they mean exactly squat when it comes to rising MLL. You either understand this or you don't. Same goes for early user reviews. It is because of the technical cowboys we have on this site that issues like this get brought to light. No one has to like it. It is what it is. You don't even need to be a techy or have Marvel comic book hero eyes to appreciate the real world difference between .008 and .030. It also, is what it is.


FYI, as a person who starts a post like this, I've been calibrating TVs for many years. Hmmmm? Are you acquainted with Ty 'Brightness control' Pendlebury?
 

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Quote:
Pioneer is wonderful in many respects but that is only compared to what passes as competition.

That's because the majority of the public are not as obsessive as some of us here on AVS. The majority of the public will not even notice the increase in black levels. All of us require training to learn what goes into making an accurate picture. I know, because there was a time not long ago when I was totally clueless and didn't pay attention to the details that make up an accurate picture. Now that I have swallowed the little red pill, and have seen how far the rabbit hole goes, I am cursed with this new-found ability to recognize flaws in every set I lay eyes upon.


Most of the public does not even have their black levels properly adjusted in the first place. My father spent over $3k for a 55 inch Hitachi plasma a few years ago, and for months and months watched it with the brightness level in the 80's when it should be somewhere around 50.


My neighbor up the street has a Panny CRT, and had his brightness cranked up so high, that there was a milky foggy haze over the screen, and his CRT supposed "blacks" were no better than a cheap LCD.

Quote:
But Pioneer having only 50" and 60" to pick from is a negative for me and, I suspect, many others.

It's usually only an issue because of price.
I have plenty of room for a 60 incher, but I just couldn't swallow paying $3k for a TV. It's just too extravagant. So I settled for a 50 incher, because it was half the price, and is said to have slightly better picture quality anyhow. I used to sit 12-13 feet away, but I've gotten in the habit of picking up my chair and sitting within about 7 feet now. It looks silly to have the chair in the middle of the living room, so when company comes over I simply pick it up and carry it back to its proper place.

Quote:
So there are issues other than simple PQ involved. Like shiney black bezels and ridiculously reflective screens on that much visual real estate. What is so difficult about making a matte bezel? Nothing, except mindless yearly (and in Pioneer's case, brand) styling cues.

All plasmas have glass, so what else would you expect? The Pioneer Elites and monitors had pretty nice filters if you ask me, especially for 2008. As for the bezel, sure shiny black may be far from ideal, but you're supposed to watch your Kuro in controlled lighting anyway. In a dark or dim environment the shiny bezel is not distracting. I have a bias light behind my monitor, where it belongs. Arranging the room lighting properly is a key factor here in reducing reflections.

Quote:
Yes, anyone can track down a Pio if they want one badly enough, new or used. The question remains, after all of these years of product development, both in terms of performance and other functional issues, why should they have to?

Because the vast majority of the public is satisfied with their cheap Panasonic and Samsung plasmas. AVS'ers are a different breed, and are much more demanding. Companies like Samsung and Panasonic are not catering to the minority on AVS, but the public at large. The public at large aren't even aware that there is an issue with rising black levels on Panasonics. Companies like Panasonic are counting on this.

Quote:
To me, it is more than someone simply picking up the Pioneer mantle. I would be happy with less if it simply worked as it should.

As I said before, for the vast majority of the consumer world, their Panasonic plasma is working just fine, as it should. You notice many people are saying they can't even tell the blacks have risen when there is light on in the room. Well I don't think the majority of people watch in total darkness anyway, but usually have some lights on. So Panasonic probably thinks people on AVS are a bit too high strung. Look at it from Panasonic's perspective. They are probably thinking to themselves, "Even after the rise our blacks are not really any worse than Samsung's, and still better than LG's. So what is all the fuss about?"

Quote:
FYI, I have Pioneers available from BB where I am, including the Pro 101 NIB, which I could've even gotten as a demo for a ridiculously low price. But don't want 50". Still, the best PQ I have seen in 2009 models is the Sammy B860.

I think I would rather have the 55 inch B8500 than the B860. It has much deeper black levels than any of Samsung's plasmas. But the B860 is not a bad choice if you do not require superior black level performance. Boy have I heard some real buzzers in the 58 inch B860's though. Maybe they fixed it somewhat toward the end of the model year. Not really any serious buzzing issues to deal with on the LED's. No line bleed or phosphor trails either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
B8500 and dark blacks? Yeah, but serious Off-axis problems. Swivel stand does help some though. Unfortunately I need it for less than 5% of viewing time but it's kinda like you moving the chair. Another hoop to jump through. Gave up finding Cablecard slot on anything after the 5010/6010. One more hoop. I use bias lighting too, even for TV viewing, when it's really not needed. My wife suffers from eye-strain and is good for one 2 hour movie at most, even with proper lighting.


6020 is still doable and I'm still mulling. Sammy buzz potential is holding me back some but broken Cinema Smooth is the real bitter pill. Although some dealers are very good about returning, even for the buzz issue. The Crutchfield Signature offer looks the best.


But so close to 2010s. I just need to be patient.
 

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I love my TC P58S1....no regrets. If you wait on the side lines for the perfect HDTV you may never get one. I'm sure your set looks very good...but I have to think a new HDTV will be a large improvement in PQ. My 2 cents
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yup. Jumping from 42" to 58" or 60" alone will make a huge difference.
480P ED to 1080P HD will be yet another allowing for much better close viewing with HD content. I usually sit 7-8' feet away for normal TV but approx. 14' for movies with ED. Looking forward to all of the improvements.


Glad to hear you're enjoying the S1.
 

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I continue to find all this negativity and glass half empty posts sad if not pathetic.


Some people just have to find fault and can never be happy.


Not once did you list the good points of these plasmas, only the perceived problems by some.


Too bad for you.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18299117


I honestly don't see what the major problem is. Panasonic and Samsung churn out millions of cheap displays. You don't have to deal with these problems if you just pay more for a quality built brand. You get what you pay for. Pioneers don't suffer from most of these issues, save for a minor bit of buzz, which some people are more sensitive to than others. And of course the buzz can be diminished a great deal by using energy save 2 mode.


So I think people just need to lower their expectations. They want Pioneer Kuro quality in a $1000-$1500 display. For people who answer that they paid $2000-$2500 for a V10, well, then all I can say is you should have shopped around some more, because for $2500 you could have bought a Kuro, and not a crummy Panny.


You get what you pay for.


If things like a broken Cinema Smooth or a yellowish and dim THX bother you, just pay up and get a Pioneer! At least we have choices. We can find a decent display if we are simply willing to pay the higher price.


And I won't buy excuses from (most) people who say they can't locate a Pioneer. They are out there if one wants one bad enough. A few can still be had if you look hard enough. You just have to pay up if you want that extra quality.


The rising black level wouldn't be such a big issue if people would be patient and wait for the right deals to come along, or if they get rid of their displays every year and upgrade to the newer models. They could sell their plasma for not much less than they paid for it, and roll into something else.

This point of view is rediculous. If so many people were willing to pay Pioneer prices, they'd still be making sets today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Of course there is good in these sets. What is your point?


The issues mentioned are unacceptable, both in terms of functionality and as a representation of quality control and concern for the product, if not the customer, if only out of their own corporate self interest. But apparently we have a new breed of consumer, willing to bend over and take it. Not just once but again and again. I see this all too clearly, on this site of all places. Not with minor issues...but major issues affecting true functional usage. This continuing crap seems pandemic. There is no safe harbor.


Again, little stuff, idiosyncratic stuff is expected. But broken 1080P/24? Obnoxious buzzing present in several generations of panel? Obvious Green greyscale? THX color screw-ups? Rising MLL which negatively affects the theater experience at best or destroys the ability to enjoy the set properly, no matter the light conditions, at worst? WTF? These are TV manufacturers, aren't they?


But you know, you're right! I've had an epiphany! What was I thinking? A new paradigm has emerged. Forget the whole rant thing. I've suddenly discovered the joys of being screwed. And I don't mind cause there's some kind of HD image I can look at, no matter what it looks like. Gee, I can't wait to lay my several thousand down so I can complain less but with much greater authenticity.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18299117


I honestly don't see what the major problem is. Panasonic and Samsung churn out millions of cheap displays. You don't have to deal with these problems if you just pay more for a quality built brand. You get what you pay for. Pioneers don't suffer from most of these issues, save for a minor bit of buzz, which some people are more sensitive to than others. And of course the buzz can be diminished a great deal by using energy save 2 mode.


So I think people just need to lower their expectations. They want Pioneer Kuro quality in a $1000-$1500 display. For people who answer that they paid $2000-$2500 for a V10, well, then all I can say is you should have shopped around some more, because for $2500 you could have bought a Kuro, and not a crummy Panny.


You get what you pay for.


If things like a broken Cinema Smooth or a yellowish and dim THX bother you, just pay up and get a Pioneer! At least we have choices. We can find a decent display if we are simply willing to pay the higher price.


And I won't buy excuses from (most) people who say they can't locate a Pioneer. They are out there if one wants one bad enough. A few can still be had if you look hard enough. You just have to pay up if you want that extra quality.


The rising black level wouldn't be such a big issue if people would be patient and wait for the right deals to come along, or if they get rid of their displays every year and upgrade to the newer models. They could sell their plasma for not much less than they paid for it, and roll into something else.

What is your point of this post? Trash other panel makers? Pat yourself on your back because you bought Pioneer?


News flash "Pioneer is out of the display business" in case you didn't notice.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/18303225


Of course there is good in these sets. What is your point?


The issues mentioned are unacceptable, both in terms of functionality and as a representation of quality control and concern for the product, if not the customer, if only out of their own corporate self interest. But apparently we have a new breed of consumer, willing to bend over and take it. Not just once but again and again. I see this all too clearly, on this site of all places. Not with minor issues...but major issues affecting true functional usage. This continuing crap seems pandemic. There is no safe harbor.


Again, little stuff, idiosyncratic stuff is expected. But broken 1080P/24? Obnoxious buzzing present in several generations of panel? Obvious Green greyscale? THX color screw-ups? Rising MLL which negatively affects the theater experience at best or destroys the ability to enjoy the set properly, no matter the light conditions, at worst? WTF? These are TV manufacturers, aren't they?


But you know, you're right! I've had an epiphany! What was I thinking? A new paradigm has emerged. Forget the whole rant thing. I've suddenly discovered the joys of being screwed. And I don't mind cause there's some kind of HD image I can look at, no matter what it looks like. Gee, I can't wait to lay my several thousand down so I can complain less but with much greater authenticity.

First you played the self appointed customer crusader and now the woeful, underacheiving consumer victum.


Don't you see a common theme in your rants?




PS I didn't expect you to see my point.......how can you with your negative outlook on life. Such a downer!!!


It's a freeking TV. In the scheme of things, it's insignificant!!!


Is there anything in life that brings you joy, other than criticizing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This banter is fun. And obviously you do not know me other than from what I post and cannot help but reply as you do. There is actually no difference in any of my posted perspectives in this thread yet you portray it as such. It is obvious you do not see what is behind any of this other than your need to express trite characterizations ... or you do not care. I am actually a glass half full person by nature and rants are very rare, cue the self-deprecating reference in post #9.


When we put up with crap we get used to it. One either understand this...or one doesn't.


The joy you receive from your 'whatevers' is fine. I receive my fair share from mine as well. But paying thousands of dollars and getting broken issues that are fairly major to a product including primary features and saying "Oh well, let's look at the Sunny side of Life" doesn't change anything. Anymore than a silly rant. But I'm feeling much better now, thank you.


I guess I long for the days when choosing a television meant deciding how big of a dust magnet my room could take. Pretty much everything else worked as it should.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan22 /forum/post/18302715


This point of view is rediculous. If so many people were willing to pay Pioneer prices, they'd still be making sets today.

True, the majority of the public is not willing to pay Pioneer prices, because, the majority of the public is not unhappy with their inexpensive Panny, Sammy, and LG plasmas! The only problem here is the disconnect with people on AVS, who have cultivated champagne tastes on a beer budget! They bought an inexpensive Panasonic or Samsung plasma, then discovered AVS, and got schooled as to all the things wrong with their inexpensive TV.


Caveat emptor.


It's just common sense that one should be wary of buying a TV for near MSRP at the very beginning of the model year. It's much better to get a deal on a closeout model near the end of the model year when all the flaws are exposed and you know what you're getting.


That's the real problem here. People fork over top dollar for the latest and greatest, and are not patient enough to test the waters by dipping their toe in first. Then they get angry when their expectations are not met. I never recommend people just rush out and buy the brand new models, unless they have a generous return policy at the place where they purchased. If they only had the patience to wait until the end of the model year, they would be much more informed, and they would get pricing good enough that they wouldn't take too much of a hit if they decided the TV won't work for them and they want to sell.


Nevertheless, I do sympathize with Panny owners, since the elevated black levels issue does not manifest itself right away, but only after several months of use. I'm sure I would be hopping mad too. But if it bothered me that bad, I would be on the phone with Panasonic every day, harassing them to take care of my problem. I would pester them so much they would gladly refund my money or upgrade me to the new model just to get rid of me. If they refused to take my calls, which would be quite frequent, I would file a claim against them in small claims court. I think I would get satisfaction one way or another. Of course this would not be worth it to me if I bought a 50 inch G10 for $1000 or something. I would just Craigslist it and take a few hundred dollar loss. I would only be interested in doing this if I paid over $2-4k for one of their models, and could not sell it without taking a huge hit.
 
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