[jlm]

just saw that the dvd version of gladiator compared unfavorably to the HBO HD version aired last night. My system scales dvd AND HD to the same output res, progressive scan 1280x768 on a 50" plasma. The path for HD is: sat, DTC-100, vig, plasma; the path for the DVD is: dvd, PMDT, vig, plasma.


I would expect this for the Sopranos, which I think has a high def source, but how do movies get converted by HBO for hd release?


jlm

 

[BenBroder]

If you check the schedule at: http://www.hdtvgalaxy.com/broad.html you can see whether a show is an upconvert or not. Nearly all of the high definition content on HBO-HD is 1080i, presumably converted from a film master using telecine.

 

[Graphics]

Well jlm, the HBO version (Gladiator)if you saw it over DirecTV is compressed Video as is a DVD progressive scan or not, its still compressed video. Laser Disks are not compressed, and good ole *Walt Disney (*when he was alive) had a conniption fit when he wouldn't release any of his archives for a very, very long time because, you in fact have a pure uncompressed copy of his work. But these are not HD sources, they are the good ole NTSC standards, but depending on the format in laser disk you have every frame of the movie uncompressed, a master copy. Another standard that will fade away in years to come like the 8 track tape. Again some other movies collecting dust at home. I will make this statement that I haven't seen it, But I would guess a widescreen Laser Disk copy of Gladiator (using a line doubler), would beat out what you just viewed on DVD progressive scan.

UHF OTA/HD (CBS / NBC *sometimes / ABC *sometimes / Fox DTV feeds / WPIX DTV feeds / PBS / at least in my case here in NYC are not, and from my understanding from what I have read here in the form will not be subject to any copy protection schemes as far as congress see's it, Which is good. I have well over 200 DVD's that are collection dust as to the quality pictures I receive off OTA, there is NO comparison, (*my views) and others here also agree with there receptions. It is a pure feed with no Hanky Panky, and weather sometimes does play into it. DirecTV regular broadcasts also look too washed out and not detailed as OTA, and again its a compressed video from the satellite. What is the old saying "Garbage in Garbage out". Satellite isn't the answer in its present state, as one HD channel uses multiple transponder and not cost effective, Cable ~ fiber optics is the ONLY way to deliver to your home all feeds uncompressed video, and that's what's going to feed these newer HDTV monitors coming down the road, this is my views and not necessarily going to happen.


Now getting to your question as to how HBO/HD channel converts the *Sopranos etc.? The original source was recorded with HD equipment or *Film (*no lines) and transferred to HD equipment. Again not all movies or events shown on HBO/HD is a true HD source, they use line doubling / tripling etc. along with your systems line doubling etc. Example The HD demo loop channel i.e. (The NY Jets demo / Boxing highlights is purely a demo of high definition taped events all using HD recording equipment etc., and edited to its maximum for showing off what these HD/Units can display, simply amazing. Again your also seeing a compressed HD video on your screen, and it is simply fantastic. I still say a CBS/OTA feed live sports event (THE MASTERS & The Final 4) was the best pictures I have ever seen on my HD unit, no comparison to any external source feeding the HD display unit. OTA is great and hope Congress protects it. ...Free TV OTA and keep it that way!


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Graphics

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST boycott JVC

 

[Graphics]

chap

I had spoken with a Time Warner installer down the street awhile ago, and he told be that (*my neighborhood) was already set up a year ago with fiber optics. It is (*now)converted back to cable copper coaxial from the pole to my home. Now after saying that, they are as we speak changing my vicinity entirely from the pole to house to fiber optics for DTV reception. All existing cable boxes will not work with this new system, and those radio shack extra cable boxes for that spare TV will soon be history. Your cable ready TV wont work unless a fiber optics box down converts it back to analog. And yes they are 8vsb HD feeds, as he stated. He claimed that I will down the road have options for View on Demand etc. / two way communication / internet service with a wireless keyboard to your cable box etc. Also Long Distance and Local telephone service all on the same cable. What I have seen in there programing options it is equal to DirecTV in amount of channels they offer a few hundred. Now as for compressed video I have no idea. And you never ever own the box, you rent it. I would say they have a huge bandwidth for future HD upgrades.


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Graphics

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST boycott JVC

 

[ChadD]

Graphics,
Quote:

Satellite isn't the answer in its present state, as one HD channel uses multiple transponder and not cost effective, Cable ~ fiber optics is the ONLY way to deliver to your home all feeds uncompressed video, and that's what's going to feed these newer HDTV monitors coming down the road

You have a few miconceptions about HDTV in this statement. 1. All HDTV which is delivered to your house arrives in a compressed format including OTA HD with a maximum bandwidth of 19.2 Mbs.

2. One satellite transponder contains more than enough bandwidth for 1 HDTV channel.


IMHO satellite is the more likely way that most nation-wide HDTV signals will be distributed for some time. Cable will have to continue to use much of their bandwidth to provide standard television to their subscribers; and will probably make more profit using the rest of their bandwidth for high speed internet connections instead of HDTV. (Which only a minority of their subscribers will watching for many years to come.)

 

[chap]

Quote:

Originally posted by Graphics: DirecTV regular broadcasts also look too washed out and not detailed as OTA, and again its a compressed video from the satellite. What is the old saying "Garbage in Garbage out". Satellite isn't the answer in its present state, as one HD channel uses multiple transponder and not cost effective, Cable ~ fiber optics is the ONLY way to deliver to your home all feeds uncompressed video, and that's what's going to feed these newer HDTV monitors coming down the road, this is my views and not necessarily going to happen.

You just made me wonder HOW MUCH bandwidth those fiber lines carry. How many HD channels can a cable company carry over current fiber standards? Also, isn't it running over COAX until it gets to your house, and then it gets converted to fiber? I have no idea how it works.




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STOP DVI/HDCP!!!!!

 

[jlm]

time warner told me that in NYC anyway they distribute via fiberoptic to various node points at street level and from there distribute via copper coax to a smaller subset of subscribers (less that 400, depending on the neighborhood conditions). coax is the cable that will come to your home; it will be a digital signal and offer their "roadrunner" two-way highspeed internet connection, using a special modem they will rent. No HD content is presently offerred, although i was told that tuning to channel 56 (?) on a digital cable will tune in a cbs HD feed, although not officially supported by TW.


jlm

 

[MonkeyMafia]

yeah... ~usually~ OTA HD movie broadcasts on ABC and CBS look better than HBO HD movies (but not all the time, like when HBO showed Drop Zone etc.)


MMAfia

 

[Graphics]

Each transponder has any where from 1 to 10 channels on it, depending on content. That depends upon the configuration of the bird and the amount and kind of compression applied. For example, let's say you have a Ku bird with 32, 6MHz transponder, and crammed two HD channels into each, you'd get 64 HD channels. The 101 Sat has no HD feeds on it so that scenario listed above is probably correct.

Your receiver automatically switches to the correct transponder depending on what channel you are watching.

Receiving 199 & 509 both High Definition feeds on DirecTV are on the 119 satellite. The only transponders that the 119 Sat has available to DirecTV are 22 thru 32. That's for just 2 channels, that's 10 transponders for 2HD broadcasts. Iam not saying that that all 10 are used for those 2 HD channels, but why isn't DirecTV expanding the HD offerings?


ChadD's quote....
2. One satellite transponder contains more than enough bandwidth for 1 HDTV channel. ...depending on what satellite and what compression and bandwidth used..Yes!


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Graphics

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST boycott JVC

 

[JFLNYC]

Graphics,


I spent a few years in the digital TV industry and I agree with most of what you've said, but ChadD is correct. HD in 1080i takes up one transponder, i.e., one 6MHZ channel, same as OTA 1080i. The reason that some 1080i looks better than others has to do with how it got to be HD. In some/many cases the show was not shot in HD, but is simply upconverted to 1080i by either by the transmitter. The fact that DirecTV may not be using some of their 119 transponders (if that is the case) doesn't mean HD takes more than one transponder.


You're right that DSS and cable compress at a 6+:1 ratio, depending upon the show (e.g., movies with little motion take up less digital bandwidth; sports with lots of motion takes up more). DSS and digital cable are mass marketed as quantity (more channels!) vs. quality (great picture). OTA tends to be consistently better (at least for now) because they're only transmitting one show. But, the broadcasters are still trying to figure out whether it would be a better business model to use a digital channel to show multiple compressed shows, at least during some dayparts. By the way, that's why each digital channel is hyphenated (e.g., 2-1). They may want to have 2-2, 2-3, etc., all of which will be broadcast on using the same 6 MHZ, but compressed.


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Jamie

 

[Tom Morrow]

Since nobody responded to the original post, I though I would.


> just saw that the dvd version of gladiator compared

> unfavorably to the HBO HD version aired last night. My

> system scales dvd AND HD to the same output res,

> progressive scan 1280x768 on a 50" plasma.


This is completely expected. The DVD contains less information (bandwidth) than the HDTV and in fact contains less pixels. The DVD gets scaled up to fit on your screen, while the HDTV gets scaled down.


So regardless of the mastering, the DVD has less information so it's not going to be as sharp, as long as the original has more information than the DVD, which is a good bet in almost all cases where the master is film or anything better than NTSC video.

 

[jlm]

thank you tom, that is pretty much what i expected. I suppose my question really had to do with how the broadcaster creates his HD output, compared to how i can do it from a dvd. Obviously, if they are using HD cameras, no question; but what about when they output a film? presumably, they are starting with a very high res conversion from analog to digital?


jlm

 

[John Mason]

This area, conversion of film to HDTV and ATSC transmissions, interests me, too. Recently I suggested a separate forum section to encourage more discussion. Generally only snippets pop up, and they're often conflicting.


Broadcast engineer Glimmie, for example, wrote: "Most HDTV film is transferred today from the Phillips 'Sprit' telecine. This is a full 1920y 960pr/pb x 1 line sensor," in his 2/12 note to this thread . That's a full-res 1080i signal. Engineer HD Ken in this thread also has a good compressed summary of HDTV encoding. More recently, Don Landis, in this chit-chat thread , wrote: "Take a high res film and transfer it to D5 video tape for the base master. This format will record and preserve 1920 pixels in the 1080i scan rate HDTV format. Then the distribution dub is done to HDCAM because that is what the cable op or DBS service happens to request. Automatically the H res was lost to 1280 pixels in the 1080i format.". He also points out, often stressed elsewhere here, that most home HDTV gear can't resolve the higher 1080i resolutions (1920 pixels).


Other comments here say HBO only provides a horizontal resolution of 800, although if the writer meant 800 lines per picture height, that would be 800 X 1.78 or 1424 lines of horizontal resolution, full 16X9 screen width. Keep in mind, as I mentioned in this thread , that ATSC experts assumed receivers filter 20 percent of the horizontal detail from 1080i signals, and that viewing and filtering of all interlaced TV greatly shrinks vertical resolution. (In this last thread, BTW, forum member LB presents some test data, now somewhat dated, comparing the bandwidth and horizontal resolution capabilities of several HDTV receiver brands.) -- John




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STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST

 

[Roger Clark]

==========================================================

Receiving 199 & 509 both High Definition feeds on DirecTV are on the 119 satellite. The only transponders that the 119 Sat has available to DirecTV are 22 thru 32. That's for just 2 channels, that's 10 transponders for 2HD broadcasts.

==========================================================

This is not correct, there are several stations other than the two HD channels on the 119 bird, NASA, several spanish channels, etc. You should check your facts before posting them.


Roger

 

[John Mason]

Quote:

Originally posted by jlm: No HD content is presently offerred, although i was told that tuning to channel 56 (?) on a digital cable will tune in a cbs HD feed, although not officially supported by TW.

Not surprising, from what myself and others have encountered when dealing with TWC. Actually, TWC NYC has been delivering both HBO and CBS in HDTV for years, plus more for a few lucky beta testers. Here's one thread dealing with HDTV in NYC (among many), and I broadly outlined TWC's transmissions. Other threads go into more detail how to hook up a STB or complete HDTV to cable.


Larger buildings, with enough potential cable subscribers, can be considered optical-fiber nodes in themselves. Pretty sure our building is, with a fiber coming into the basement. That means the final bandwidth restrictions (and channel capacities) are the coax cabling and amplifiers within the building. That's usually under 1 Ghz--a lot of potential cable channels, especially with TWC's 10:1 compression for digital cable channels (what it calls DTV ). Quite recently Scientific Atlanta , which supplies most of TWC's NYC cable converters, has been touting a new technique for extending fiber capability farther down the line from the cable head-end. Not sure what that's about yet, but the implication may have been that the bandwidth limitations of the "final mile" of coaxial cable wiring from telephone poles to home, or a few hundred feet in urban cable systems, may be diminishing with SA's new cabling technique. With optical fiber alone, bandwidth is virtually unlimited since new capacity can be added by multiplexing new light wavelengths along the fibers already in use. -- John



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[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 06-05-2001).]

 

[PVR]

Laserdisk may not have digital compression but it has analog compression (film source down to NTSC) and many downsides from storing the signal in an analog format.


Although DVD (and even US HDTV to some extent) can suffer noticable digital artifacts (blockiness) on complex scenes, at least they don't suffer from analog noise (minors specles and snow) and washout like I see sometimes with Laserdisks.


Also Laserdisks are stored in NTSC with the color information and luminance grouped together so you sometimes see a bit of color bleed and are limited to the NTSC color "palette".


Anyways, my point is that Laserdisk is not "obviously superior" to DVD. The DVD signal stability and color range (and Dolby Digital Sound and special features and compact size and ...) give them some real benefits.


Now that I have 1080i HDTV I wouldn't even consider DVD or LaserDisk as being better.


And Yes, Gladiator looks better as HDTV than it does on the DVD. They are both MPEG2 compressed but the HD version has more resolution and more datarate.

 

[Graphics]

Roger Clark please show me were I missed stated facts, my quote below,READ THE ENTIRE paragraph, just don't stop were you stopped.......

Receiving 199 & 509 both High Definition feeds on DirecTV are on the 119 satellite. The only transponders that the 119 Sat has available to DirecTV are 22 thru 32. That's for just 2 channels, that's 10 transponders for 2HD broadcasts. Iam not saying that that all 10 are used for those 2 HD channels, but why isn't DirecTV expanding the HD offerings?

I can see why people get in trouble for misquotes etc. when the WRONG interpretation was taken incorrectly AS YOU DID! I have no problem with your response on my quote, I have a problem with your ending telling me what I should do, -->You should check your facts before posting them Ill refer you to the folks who run the show here on the forum, the next time you accuse me.

...check your reading glasses next time, have a nice day http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


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Graphics

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST boycott JVC

 

[Roger Clark]

Graphics, no disrespect meant, I just didn't catch the sentence you pointed out and I've seen a number of people assume the 119 sat is ONLY HD. My mistake, sorry.


Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger Clark (edited 06-07-2001).]

 

[Jym]

I think it comes down to econmics and architecture. Basically Cable can be two way and satellite is not. The cable company and satellite have this asset which is bandwidth. What return can they get on this asset is what matters. For cable it is going to be high speed Internet and for satellite it is probably more likely to be HDTV. The problem with HDTV is that the bandwidth cost versus the perceived benifit from the public is out of line. With OTA it is simpler because bandwidth is basically free and government is requiring. Neither are true with the cable company.


I think it will be a very long time before cable companies widespread will provide HDTV. It will require a couple more years of moores law. It will happen because bandwidth will continue to drop in cost but we have a long way to go.


-Jym-

 

[brentpr]

Gentlemen,


There is a guy that works a DirecTV he is known by the name of DAVE many people will know whom I'm talking about. He is

the lead engineer at DirecTV he also heads up all the updates and is in charge of trying to stop all of he hackers. I talked to him this year at the CES show about HDTV. He told me for the two HD channels it takes about 20 transponders to run those two channels. I was complaining to him that the picture quality of DirecTV was getting worse as time goes by. He told me it was because of them adding all of the FCC mandated local channels, and that they are running out of bandwidth. He also stated that you can fit about 12-15 analog channels per transponder, and that they would be slow adding more HDTV channels. He also said that there would be another SAT to share bandwidth sent up between May- July this year and after that you would start seeing better quality and more HD feeds. This is also why DirecTV is slow in adding Showtime in HD.


Regards,


Brent