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Looking at the format fanboys everyday and their comments on this format war, I think their focus needs to change direction, it's doesn't need to be a war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, the real war is getting consumers to Pick HD formats over DVD.

People I know still don't have dvd players and at current price points this is criminal. the average joe does not care about picture quality and this is where the uphill struggle is. £20 dvd players are readily available everywhere and they all do 1 thing... Play pirate films.


Piracy is HD biggest enemy, not because of AACS hacking but because the mass availability of pirate DVD's with inferior picture quality at a tiny fraction of the cost of an original DVD, movies that are still showing at the cinema (theatre) for £1-2 a pop.


this is bringing a decline in revenue for film studios as less and less people flock to the cinema, waiting just mere days to get the movie on pirate DVD. This in turn reduces original DVD sales down the line.


trouble is talking to these people, they just don't care. Rather that fight amongst ourselves about the HD formats we need to educate these people as to the destruction they are causing to the movie industry as a whole, after all what would happen if there were no films to copy?


People need to see that, a movie is a much more fulfilling experience when you can actually see the picture and hear clear sound. until then there will never be rapid upsurge in HD sales.


The misconception is that its not about the price of Highend formats but more about how people value the quality of what they are watching.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GC19360 /forum/post/0


Looking at the format fanboys everyday and their comments on this format war, I think their focus needs to change direction, it's doesn't need to be a war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, the real war is getting consumers to Pick HD formats over DVD


Many here believe that in order for HD on disc to overtake DVD, there needs to be one HD disc format. This would make more of the general population less reluctant to buy into an HD disc format.
 

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GC19360: agree, but the general public won't look at HD movies seriously until they think it is a safe bet. That confidence can only come when there is one. Until that point many will fear to buy a player, and from the ones that do many will fear to buy movies which is the ultimate indicator
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyg /forum/post/0


Many here believe that in order for HD on disc to overtake DVD, there needs to be one HD disc format. This would make more of the general population less reluctant to buy into an HD disc format.

How do you explain the general population ignoring laser disc? One format, and ignored. This is the same thing to the folks. They already have the movies they want, and they already think that they are HD.
 

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Or they will just start to buy dual format players and everyone is happy.


But the biggest problem for HD is that many people is already happy with DVD. Not everyone that bought their DVD player, bought it for PQ and AQ.


So if the companys stopped proclaiming they have won the war and the other format is dead, maybe people would feel more free to buy what ever format they want.
 

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How do you explain the general population ignoring laser disc? One format, and ignored. This is the same thing to the folks. They already have the movies they want, and they already think that they are HD.

LD had many issues, be it the price, the problems and that studios never got into them. People also liked the recordable side of tapes. Don't forget when Beta came out it was a recordable format. Studios, TV companies hated it because they lost control on their content. The guy could tape a show and then FF the ads, tape a movie and not care about studios anymore.... When studios noticed that they could not win, it is only then that they decided to use it in its favour and start selling movies on it and VHS. LD hardly gave anything more, while not being recordable, on most TVs you could not see a difference and people don't like having many devices.


HDOM is different

1) they will play your DVDs (no need for multiple devices)

2) You can see a benefit even on SD sets (I tried it)

3) Studios want it to succeed

4) It is an easy upgrade.
 

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Or they will just start to buy dual format players and everyone is happy.

not at all. They cost a lot more, and don't help at all. Does it help you determine what side will win just because you have a dual player? You bought your dual player, wasted a lot of $, but if you start an HD DVD and BD wins when your dual player dies your HD DVD are useless, the same if BD dies, the same if neither survives. Dual players don't help at all. Furthermore it is insane to assume that dual players will be anything more then a small subsection of players. The PS3 is the most sold HDOM player, the 360 add-on is the second, neither of which will ever be dual.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP /forum/post/0


not at all. They cost a lot more, and don't help at all. Does it help you determine what side will win just because you have a dual player? You bought your dual player, wasted a lot of $, but if you start an HD DVD and BD wins when your dual player dies your HD DVD are useless, the same if BD dies, the same if neither survives. Dual players don't help at all. Furthermore it is insane to assume that dual players will be anything more then a small subsection of players. The PS3 is the most sold HDOM player, the 360 add-on is the second, neither of which will ever be dual.

Dual format players will come down in price. Then it can attract a lot of buyers. But not with the prices of today.


If all sides agreed that Dual format players shall be the norm from 2008. Then could people start to buy discs and just enjoy HD. And all the CE manufactures could start working on solutions that will make them compete in the same format and not with different formats.
 

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Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty /forum/post/0


How do you explain the general population ignoring laser disc? One format, and ignored.

The price was too high for mass adoption. LD used the same sort of model that BD is using today, and the players never got below about $300 (in early 90s currency, which is $5-600 today). As I recall, it was pretty much a Pioneer game for the players, and they kept the pricing high. [Disclosure: I still own and use two Pioneer LD players.] Additionally, LD prices were almost 3x VHS prices for media ($15 for a tape, $40 for the LD) - we're already closer to SD DVD with either HD format.

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This is the same thing to the folks. They already have the movies they want, and they already think that they are HD.

Only to a point. The mass market is already being 'herded' towards digital tuners and HD - it's just a matter of time before the lion's share of the playback gear in use is HD-capable. Once this happens, and HD media prices drop to be equivalent to SD media, HD will take over.


No, I have a fairly high confidence that one or both of these formats will eclipse SD DVD. However, the sooner BD either drops prices to mass-market levels, or gives up completely, the faster we'll get there.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty /forum/post/0


How do you explain the general population ignoring laser disc? One format, and ignored. This is the same thing to the folks. They already have the movies they want, and they already think that they are HD.

Laser disk was ignored because of a whole plethora of reasons. The video quality wasn't all that much better than VHS. You couldn't 'record' on LD. LD was more expensive. LD didn't have the selection of titles for purchase and rent. And, people didn't want to buy an extra, expensive, stand-alone 'player', since most people already had VHS players due to its recording capabilites.


In the HD format case, the PQ alone isn't just slightly better than standard DVD, but monumentally better.
 

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Less talk about war, and more talk about the benefits of reasonably priced dual-format players is the way to go at this point. It's just the die-hard single-format shills that won't admit they could turn this mess around, and put some positive spin back on HDM in general.
 

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No HD optical disc will ever touch the popularity of SD DVD. My family couldn't care less about HD. Only the technophiles and HT buffs even care. SD DVD is enough for the vast majority ,it's sales have dropped because many have seen the films they want to see, there are many other ways to get media , and the number of must have new releases isn't what it once was. Improving the picture and sound won't reverse the slide. The present mass of twenty somethings want convenience and are willing to chuck quality evidenced by the MP3 explosion and audiphile collapse.


Art
 

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Quote:
Dual format players will come down in price. Then it can attract a lot of buyers. But not with the prices of today.

prices will never be low enough and I don't think it will help. Look at all the people that have two players, are they paying attention to what disks they are buying?

Quote:
If all sides agreed that Dual format players shall be the norm from 2008.

why would they agree? if they could have agreed we woulkd only have one format today.

Quote:
Then could people start to buy discs and just enjoy HD. And all the CE manufactures could start working on solutions that will make them compete in the same format and not with different formats.

what you are missing is that dual players (norm or not) are still two formats. A studio needs to decided on what to replicate, the replicator what machines to buy..... people will lways quetion is it a stalemate with both going forward, they are both stalled or will one win.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn /forum/post/0


No HD optical disc will ever touch the popularity of SD DVD. My family couldn't care less about HD. Only the technophiles and HT buffs even care.


I don't believe you're entirely correct on this Art. Ideally what should happen, is that when the price point of the multi-format HD players finally come down to a J6P level. Then player manufactures won't be making SD DVD only players anymore. All players sold will be 'HD' players. Same as all current DVD players are also CD players. Then 'SD-DVD's only' will simply disappear, and all new content will be on HD discs. Even people who don't care about picture quality will still have what they want (since these will also play on their low-res TV's. And videophiles will have what they want.
 

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Originally Posted by Rutgar /forum/post/0


I don't believe you're entirely correct on this Art. Ideally what should happen, is that when the price point of the multi-format HD players finally come down to a J6P level. Then player manufactures won't be making SD DVD only players anymore. All players sold will be 'HD' players. Same as all current DVD players are also CD players. Then 'SD-DVD's only' will simply disappear, and all new content will be on HD discs. Even people who don't care about picture quality will still have what they want (since these will also play on their low-res TV's. And videophiles will have what they want.

May well come to pass but this will not get folks to rebuy SD versions in HD. The cash cow has been milked. I buy a lot of HD and have bought close to 1000 DVDs. I simply won't be doing that again, I know it. This isn't because I don't love HD but my reasoning for the purchases originally has faded.


Folks bought DVDs to see convenient nice looking titles , many for the first time. The price was right and many, like me ,bought tons of films to enjoy for the first time. The convenience level is the same, price similar on the discs to early DVD( less actually adjusting for inflation) so that leaves PQ and AQ to sell it. I simply have no confidence that it will.


As you have noted , pricing and gradual transition will fuel the eventual demise of SD but the SD DVD sales curve will not be repeated except in a much diminished form.


Art
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn /forum/post/0


The present mass of twenty somethings want convenience and are willing to chuck quality evidenced by the MP3 explosion and audiphile collapse.

I think you make a good point here, but I believe that there's another driver behind the loss of high-quality audio among the younger set - system requirements creep.


When I was first buying sound equipment, I directed my budget into a solid 2-channel system. To take a number, if I had $5K to spend, I'd spend $1000 on an amp, $500 on a turntable, $500 on a cassette deck, $250 on a CD player, and the remaining $2500 on speakers (the rest gets absorbed in cables and other miscellany). Back in the mid-to-late 80s, that bought a pretty decent system. Video games and displays weren't part of the system yet; at that time, a 19" color screen (Trinitron, if you had taste) was the de facto starting point for TV, and we really didn't think very often about linking the two - that didn't really come about until the 90s (at least in my circles).


Now, if a kid starting out has the same amount of money to spend (in today's dollars), he's probably using it on a 5.1 system. Since it's 20 years later, let's assume that it's a $10K budget. He will still spend $1K on an amp, $500 on a CD player, but he's now also spending $500+ on a game console, $300 on a DVD player, $1500+ on a flat-screen display, $1K on a subwoofer, leaving $5K for a set of 5 speakers. Now, that sounds good, BUT: 20 years ago, I was spending $1250 apiece for my speakers. Now, he's spending $1K apiece. Given the relative value of the dollar then vs. now, it's easy to see that the quality of the average system has declined, while the quantity of discrete components has increased. In order to get the same relative sound quality, you would have to have a much larger budget in today's environment. Heck, if my wife realized how much I've actually spent in the process of adding channels to my system over the years......
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn /forum/post/0


The present mass of twenty somethings want convenience and are willing to chuck quality evidenced by the MP3 explosion and audiphile collapse.


Art


The mp3 explosion is due to the fact that most people listen to music on the go: in their car, working, exercising, waiting at the doctor's office etc. Very few ever sit down quietly in a room with an expensive sound setup and listen to albums for hours. But this is exactly what most do when watching films. It is more of an event, and so quality presentation is desired more.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn /forum/post/0


My family couldn't care less about HD. Only the technophiles and HT buffs even care.

Art

That's not my experience. My family cares about HD, even to my amazement my 8 year old son often asks when watching an SD channel "Is this also on an HD channel?" Especially hockey, which he follows, he'll always check if the game is on HD or not.


Many of my friends, who are not A/V buffs per say, are eager to have HD displays and HD signals (and have bought HD displays). I gave my HD-DVD player and some movies to my brother to check out for a week, with his new plasma. Now he can't wait to own one himself.


Further, while it's true that the majority of the population doesn't share our obsession with the best possible picture quality, it seems there is enough interest, and also an interest in the hardware manufacturer side to push HD displays. Now in the average Best Buy/Future Shop or any AV store pretty much every new display available on the shelf is an HD display. So HD is clearly the future, whether everyone is

as passionate about it as the next guy or not.


Just as is the case with HD tvs, I think HD source material will at some point become the default source material. There are more and more HD channels being offered, most of the cable/sat providers at least in my city (Toronto) advertise on the basis of how many HD channels they offer -that's the big feature. And the more HD people experience on their display the less satisfied they are likely to be switching back to SD content. Add to that expanding TV image sizes that also help show the benefits of HD over SD signals and...you get the point.


It just seems to me that HD content will become the de facto source content sooner or later, just as HD displays have become the de facto standard for new TVs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn /forum/post/0


As you have noted , pricing and gradual transition will fuel the eventual demise of SD but the SD DVD sales curve will not be repeated except in a much diminished form.


Art

To that, I totally agree. And for pretty much the same reasons you've stated.


For me, I've actually surprised myself at how many HD titles I have already double dipped on. Although a lot of them are titles I bought simply because there still isn't that many HD titles to choose from yet and I needed a fix. But I think it's safe to say that I won't be replacing the majority of my SD-DVD collection. I have completely stopped buying new release SD-DVD's with very few, and extreme exceptions (I went ahead and bought Pan's Labyrinth for example). And since store's like Fry's already have a majority of their catalog HD discs for $19.99, I can see where in maybe another year that HD discs will be at pretty much the same price point as SD-DVD. And once that happens for new releases in HD, then I believe that will drive J6P into buying the hopefully > $300.00 multi-format disc players.


I know this is all conjecture and maybe some wishful thinking on my part. But I think it's a real possibility that things could play out this way.
 

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Anybody who thinks HD will be a niche market forgets history. Every technology is superceded and every single time the same ones who lose sight of history claim that that current technology will be foreover. Sorry, history is completely against this notion. HD is increasing steadily whether in cable/satellite form, tvs, etc. Heck CRTs still made up 46% of tvs shipped in 2006 but the figure is dropping rapidly. HD whether through dvd or cable/satellite is the market of inevitability, not choice. Do you think the growing # of consumers who begin to adopt and understand HD, have HD sets, and HD dvd players drop to the same cost of current dvd players (happening very soon given Toshiba's aggressive pricing) will want to AVOID the inevitability - I think not.
 
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