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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok,

Since no-one has fixed our 1/2 hour dropout problem yet (much less the other issues). I decided to do some investigating. So, I got out all my test equipment and tried to check for multiswitch issues (just on a hunch and after reading lots of posts). First observation - I could not get the silly thing to drop out (or rather it was not cooperating). Second observation - I was able to get dropouts on SCI-FI, NASA, and HBO-HD simply by following the following procedure. First set up the HD-100 to a local HD channel. Then go to one of the three channels in question (so you can jump back and forth). I was then able to recreate the dropouts (note to those of you who have not been paying attention http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif - you _may_ be able to avoid dropouts by being set up to jump only between DTV channels). Also of note here, I am able to get dropouts on both satellites this way (not only the 119 Sat). Now for the __really__ interesting part. If you monitor the multiswitch control signals, an interesting thing is seen. Watching Sci-Fi which uses 19 Volts and no 24 KHz, I noticed that during the dropout the voltage went to 13 Volts and 24 KHz (signaling the multiswitch to change both polarization and satellite). And for HBO-HD which uses the 13 Volts and 24 KHz, during the dropout it changed to 19 Volts and no 24 KHz. The exact opposite in both cases. Obviously the Satellite receiver can not continue to decode the channel if it loses the signal http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif . Why is this important you ask (I'm glad you asked http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ), this means it is probably a software issue, and not a hardware issue, and thus, it should be able to be corrected http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I suspect somehow the software gets confused and thinks it can (and should) go get the guide from the other Satellite (or forgets which one it is looking at).

There are two important things which need to be verified from this (since I am a sample of one and thus should not be trusted http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ). One - you can avoid the dropouts by careful planning of the current jump situation (no OTA, and maybe certain other channels), and 2 - someone else really does have the mutiswitch problem.

If we can confirm this information, and somehow it into the correct hands (harder than you might think), we might have a solution in a few weeks (figure normal debug cycle, QA, approval, and testing, then sent to be downloaded). In other words, even if I am correct, it may still be a while before it is fixed (Since they might not have any Software folks assigned, or they may be busy on another problem). Lots of factors here...

Sorry so long, but I thought some of you might want this information... Don't shoot the messenger http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
 

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Mike... interesting stuff. Unfortunately I'm out of town for about a week so I can't try it myself. But it sounds like you may have hit upon something here. You're right about one thing though: the hardest part here may be getting the info into the right people's hands.
 

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Joe C5,


If you can write this up and just give the technical information on what happens with the voltages and frequencies when acquiring the guide at the half hour intervals, I will e-mail it to the Sony Tier II support person who gave me her e-mail address.


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Dave B.

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Please forgive for posting this here. I went to the local Hi-Fi store today(IMHO it is a good one in the Seattle area) and met with my friendly salesperson about some additions to my Salamander cabinets. I asked him to let me "play" with the HD-100. It was then that I discovered that it has the same problems on local OTA that I experience. Could not test the on the hour or half hour stuff, but my biggest problem was OTA drop outs on my strongest channel KING DT (5.3). I showed him they have the same problem. I then went to another area of the store which used an old Pioneer terrestrial only receiver. It worked flawlessly! I have been around this TV stuff for many years and now feel so relieved to have seen the problem on another receiver while another worked fine.


I know everyone has been saying that the DTC-100 or whatever does not have my problems, but I had to "see for myself". I did!


I agree that these things can be fixed by software download and I only now wait for SONY to fix their problems.


Isn't it interesting that SONY did not release their box until after the FCC reiterated their backing of the approved system. Then I believe they "rushed" to try and get their "market position"...but didn't make it! Has anyone noticed that it is very hard to find an HD-100 right now. Crutchfield does not have them.

I am convinced SONY will eventually fix it. If I am not mistaken the DTC-100 went through some "growing" pains?


JoeCS, good thinking!

Bill


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The World Is Not Flat!


[This message has been edited by Babula (edited 04-21-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Babula (edited 04-21-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Babula (edited 04-21-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
dmbatch - Sometime tomorrow, I will write something up. I am still doing some testing, but so far it appears consistant. As a matter of fact, I have noticed a couple of new things. For all of you who are annoyed about the dropouts, at least for me the "jump fix" works all the time (make sure the jump is set up for DTV only, no OTA). Oh, and remember, this has nothing to do with the other problems (guide, OTA dropouts, Sync problems).


[This message has been edited by Joe C5 (edited 04-21-2001).]
 

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FWIW, I got the hd100 hooked up to DirecTV today. But, only one satellite. I don't have the elliptical dish yet. I've had no lip sync problems and no video/audio dropouts on either DirecTV or OTA. The guide is sure slow. The fan is tolerable, barely. Not sure I'll keep it yet.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by artshotwell:
I've had no lip sync problems and no video/audio dropouts on either DirecTV or OTA.
The lip sync problem only happens on OTA HD CBS, so if you don't have the elliptical dish or a second dish, you won't see it.




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Dave B.

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artshotwell, I do have the eliptical dish w/multiswitch but I am looking at only the 101 satellite. I do get 1 and 1/2 hour drop outs on standard Directv but, sometimes it will go for hours and not do it. My OTA from a mounted Channel Master antenna gets the lip sync on one CBS channel 9.1 WUSA (D.C.) only.


DaveB, I don't understand your comment that if you don't have an eliptical dish you won't see the OTA HD lip sync problem? Maybe you are saying you won't see the DTV drop outs if you don't have the new dish.
 

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Joe, forgot to say thanks for your effort. I am going to try your jump fix now. Hope your good work is part of the answer and Sony will do something with it. I want to wait until Monday or Tuesday to call them back to see what the next step is to get my unit fixed or my money back. I want to make sure the 2nd level tech is back to work.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dmbatch:
The lip sync problem only happens on OTA HD CBS, so if you don't have the elliptical dish or a second dish, you won't see it.
Dave, I do get CBS OTA via KIRO-HD. I don't need an elliptical dish for OTA. Art

 

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Joe, you are right. Everything happened just as you said. So, you think this can be corrected with a software upgrade?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Jimmy - In theory this would be a simple software change (I do software for embedded systems for a living, so I do have some frame of reference). In practice, it still might take them a while to find it (But still it's just a software change). It should be able to be downloaded via Satellite as most other boxes allow. The real problem is 1) getting the info to the SW types so they can fix it, and 2) getting Sony to put the proper resources behind the project (just throwing a body at it usually does not work http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ). All we can do is sit here and hope, and wait (and use the "jump fix" http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif )...
 

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Joe,

What a great piece of investigative work!!! I tried your procedure and got mine to do the dropouts on command. It seems to me you've done Sony's work for them. It goes a long way to explain why some people have never noticed this problem and why it took me awhile to see it at the beginning. I just may not have had the "deadly" sequence of jump channels programmed.


Have you contacted Sony with this valuable info? You should get a consulting fee from them. Again, great work!!
 

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The only question is why Sony couldn't figure this out and have a patch ready?


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Ken Elliott


[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 04-22-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
dmbatch - Here is the info you requested...


Note: The following assumes a HD-100 set up with all inputs and

outputs (Oval Dish with HBO and HBO-HD, Cable, and OTA

HD channels). Also, unavailable channels disabled in guide.


To Create Dropout condition (In general this works most of the time)

Some time during the 1/2 hour before the dropout is desired...

Select a DTV channel (501), select an OTA HD channel (22.1 for me),

Select a DTV channel (509). Dropout will occur at about 14 seconds

after the hour or half hour (UTC). It will last for about 7 seconds

and may be followed by 1 or more additional dropouts depending on channels. Note that pressing the jump button will toggle between

the 509 and 22.1 in this example - this is important.


To Avoid a Dropout Condition

Select a DTV channel (501), Select another DTV channel (520).


Dropout Cause

The dropout is caused by the receiver changing the selected Satellite

and/or the polarization. For instance, if 244 is selected with a local

DTV station, the control voltage will be 19 Volts and the 24 KHz will

not be present. When the dropout occurs, the control voltage will

change to 13 volts, and the 24 KHz WILL be present. Conversely other

channels such as HBO-HD (509) will do the exact opposite. In addition,

if 520 is selected, only the 24 KHZ will change (satellite selection

changes).


Note: The control voltage and 24 KHz control at no time appear to be

degraded. This would indicate the receiver is actually changing the

polarity and Satellite on purpose. This will also happen if the OTA HD

channel is selected (but does not affect the picture since it is not

currently being viewed). Also note the dropout seems to occur with

normal cable channels also (OTA HD not required).





[This message has been edited by Joe C5 (edited 04-22-2001).]
 

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Well as one of those people who did'nt have a problem. I do now. I created it by using your info. I guess I was just lucky enough not to have the "Jump" setup for it to happen. Great job! Now we just have to wait for Sony to fix this. I hope they listen.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by artshotwell:
Dave, I do get CBS OTA via KIRO-HD. I don't need an elliptical dish for OTA. Art

Art,


I knew that :). I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. Oh well, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.




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Dave B.

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Joe,


I sent your information to the Sony support person. I have not yet heard back form her.


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Dave B.

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Joe,


You nailed it. You have it EXACTLY right. I tried the "jump trick" this morning and it's doing exactly as you described. I could never figure out why I'd get dropouts sometimes and then not for days. I thought it was just inconsistent but it was my channel surfing that was inconsistent. I think you're right on with the tuner not remembering which satellite it was looking at.


Very, very good work and thanks for getting to the bottom of this.


Charles
 

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I hope you have better luck getting Sony to fix this problem then us folks with the A55 have had on the audio problems that have been going on for almost 10 months now.
 
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