AVS Forum banner

2901 - 2920 of 4955 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
HDCP error


I am having some strange behavior with my Celerity Tech DFO fiber optic cable. System has been running fine for the last six months when I got this cable. It goes 60' from Vertex to JVC RS600. On Sunday when I started the system I got no picture. The reading on the Vertex for TX0 (and TX1) was HDCP error + resolution.


I switched in my old Rainbow Fish fiber optic cable and it worked perfectly. I tried all possible combinations and the RF always worked and the CT always read HDCP error. At the same time I connected RF to TX0 (worked perfectly) and CT to TX1 (HDCP error). I reversed the cables and the HDCP error followed the CT cable.


It looks like the CT is not working properly and needs replacement. I could not find any info on HDCP error and I was wondering if you could shed any light on this problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
Integral + Vertex?


Now that the Vertex supports LLDV, I am thinking of using my old Integral until Denon gets their AVR firmware LLDV.


Here is the issues. I have an Apple TV 4K. It plugs directly (through the Vertex now) into my Sony X930E TV.
I then use the optical out from the TV to my Denon AVR. This only results in 5.1 sounds since thats what the TV will report back to the ATV.


Here is what I have now:


Denon AVR ----> Vertex Port 0 ----> HDMI 2 on Sony TV
AFTV -----------> Vertex Port 1 ------> HDMI3 on SonyTV


I would like to use the Integral as a splitter so I can send HDMI audio to the Denon (and the AFTV sees that Denon support 7.1 Atmos, etc). Something like this?


Denon AVR -----> Vertex Port 0 ------> HDMI 2 on SonyTV


AFTV ----- Integral Port 0 -----------> Vertex Port 1 -----> HDMI 3 on SonyTV

Integral Port 1 ---------------> Denon AVR HDMI


Both Integral and Vertex would use Automix


Before I go and start ripping up cables etc, does this look like it would work? How do I insure that the AFTV sees the Denon EDID for sound?

I suppose it will work as you want, may be use TOP output priority algo for automix on Integral to make sure it reads the Denon EDID fully or just MAX sound/MAX video algo, both should work equally well in this case.





HDCP error


I am having some strange behavior with my Celerity Tech DFO fiber optic cable. System has been running fine for the last six months when I got this cable. It goes 60' from Vertex to JVC RS600. On Sunday when I started the system I got no picture. The reading on the Vertex for TX0 (and TX1) was HDCP error + resolution.


I switched in my old Rainbow Fish fiber optic cable and it worked perfectly. I tried all possible combinations and the RF always worked and the CT always read HDCP error. At the same time I connected RF to TX0 (worked perfectly) and CT to TX1 (HDCP error). I reversed the cables and the HDCP error followed the CT cable.


It looks like the CT is not working properly and needs replacement. I could not find any info on HDCP error and I was wondering if you could shed any light on this problem.

I would try source > CT > display, to see if it can sync.
You can also send private message for special fw to try, help determine the root cause but check above test first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
I would try source > CT > display, to see if it can sync.
You can also send private message for special fw to try, help determine the root cause but check above test first.

I received from CT new TX and RX ends for the cable. I replaced the old ones but there was no change, still got HDCP error when connected to Vertex, either TX0 or TX1, and either HDMI A or B on JVC.



I then connect CT to Oppo 203 and JVC RS600. It worked!



I moved CT back to Vertex. It sort of worked. No more HDCP error, but could not always get a picture. Info screen read correctly most, but not all, of the time. I powered down Vertex and CT many times but I could not get a picture 100% of the time.


Whenever I replaced CT with RF (exact same settings and TX) I got picture 100% of the time.


There seems to be some problem between CT and Vertex interface.


Seems strange that just plugging the CT into the Oppo would change its behavior.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
I received from CT new TX and RX ends for the cable. I replaced the old ones but there was no change, still got HDCP error when connected to Vertex, either TX0 or TX1, and either HDMI A or B on JVC.



I then connect CT to Oppo 203 and JVC RS600. It worked!



I moved CT back to Vertex. It sort of worked. No more HDCP error, but could not always get a picture. Info screen read correctly most, but not all, of the time. I powered down Vertex and CT many times but I could not get a picture 100% of the time.


Whenever I replaced CT with RF (exact same settings and TX) I got picture 100% of the time.


There seems to be some problem between CT and Vertex interface.


Seems strange that just plugging the CT into the Oppo would change its behavior.

Are you running Vertex PCB version 2 ? if not, did you try using 5.25V PSU.


You should verify if 5.25V 2A PSU solves the issue or not (if you have Vertex PCB version 1), if not, may be there is physical connector issue at Vertex output and that would need a replacement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
Are you running Vertex PCB version 2 ? if not, did you try using 5.25V PSU.


You should verify if 5.25V 2A PSU solves the issue or not (if you have Vertex PCB version 1), if not, may be there is physical connector issue at Vertex output and that would need a replacement.

Must be PCB version 1 since I bought both the Integral and Vertex during pre-sale. How do I check?



The CT has USB connectors at both end. There is generally no need to connect the TX end but I will try it tonight. Strange that it would stop working correctly after 6 months of perfect service with the CT.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,098 Posts
JVC projector question.

I am considering the Panasonic ub820 soon because it provides dynamic optimization of HDR10 signals. I like the idea of adjustments on the fly for bright and dark scenes, especially for projectors.

Will the "Disable HDR" box we use for DI affect the ub820's optimizer ability to make these HDR adjustments as it receives metadata from the disc?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
868 Posts
I've been hearing a lot about HDR10+ recently, and asked the consortium via twitter about the possibility of it being added via firmware update to existing HDMI 2.0a compatible electronics, and they said yet, definitely. That's great! Because it would mean, buying a Vertex, if it got the HDR10+ update, would one way to get the HDR10+ video signal passed through to a TV or projector that has it, with the Atmos audio passed to the AVR via another wire.

What do you think, @HDfury? Any chance of HDR10+ firmware updates?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
Must be PCB version 1 since I bought both the Integral and Vertex during pre-sale. How do I check?



The CT has USB connectors at both end. There is generally no need to connect the TX end but I will try it tonight. Strange that it would stop working correctly after 6 months of perfect service with the CT.

Yes, that is PCB version 1 (both GUI and APP report if it's PCB1 or 2 since FW 1.30.1.30) and you should use CT with power supply on both end OR 5.25V PSU to make sure issue is not like I said, physical connector issue on Vertex output that would need replacement.

JVC projector question.

I am considering the Panasonic ub820 soon because it provides dynamic optimization of HDR10 signals. I like the idea of adjustments on the fly for bright and dark scenes, especially for projectors.

Will the "Disable HDR" box we use for DI affect the ub820's optimizer ability to make these HDR adjustments as it receives metadata from the disc?

No I don't think so as I don't see how something happening later in the chain could affect something happening earlier on.

I've been hearing a lot about HDR10+ recently, and asked the consortium via twitter about the possibility of it being added via firmware update to existing HDMI 2.0a compatible electronics, and they said yet, definitely. That's great! Because it would mean, buying a Vertex, if it got the HDR10+ update, would one way to get the HDR10+ video signal passed through to a TV or projector that has it, with the Atmos audio passed to the AVR via another wire.

What do you think, @HDfury? Any chance of HDR10+ firmware updates?

Sorry I'm not sure I'm following, we already support HDR10+, ALLM, VRR, all DV modes and anything else in existence today. so please elaborate ! (FYI Vertex is HDMI 2.0b and already have some 2.1 features added)
Actually it's AVR and display that would need an update, not Vertex. and we already have customer with HDR10+ display sending Atmos at the same time to their AVR using Vertex. (And we added the Q9FN EDID as custom EDID on last build for people to experiment)
 
  • Like
Reactions: BattleAxeVR

·
Banned
Joined
·
868 Posts
HD Fury rocks, thanks!

By the way, I just read that the new Geforce GTX 1180 GPUs are going to support HDMI 2.1, so if I buy an Atmos receiver with only HDMI 2.0a on it, it will definitely not be able to pass through the video directly to any future display I buy.

https://wccftech.com/nvidia-next-gen-geforce-rumors-hdmi-2-1-gpu-boost-clock-rtx-support-more/

So my question is, is HD Fury planning on a Vertex 2.0 or something similar, that has HDMI 2.1 inputs and outputs? If not, I will likely wait for an HDMI 2.1 receiver which does everything in one shot. But I'd rather buy Atmos over HDMI 2.0a immediately than wait.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
HDfury X4 HDR to SDR conversion firmware incoming !

Super quick note to let you know that we did it !


HDR to SDR conversion to perfectly feed a 1080p display/capture device (With HDfury X4) while playing/streaming in 4K HDR is now a reality ! (With Vertex passthru on one output to main display and downscaled HDR to HDfury X4 on second output)


Firmware and details will be published in the next days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cargen and Manni01

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
HD Fury rocks, thanks!

By the way, I just read that the new Geforce GTX 1180 GPUs are going to support HDMI 2.1, so if I buy an Atmos receiver with only HDMI 2.0a on it, it will definitely not be able to pass through the video directly to any future display I buy.

https://wccftech.com/nvidia-next-gen-geforce-rumors-hdmi-2-1-gpu-boost-clock-rtx-support-more/

So my question is, is HD Fury planning on a Vertex 2.0 or something similar, that has HDMI 2.1 inputs and outputs? If not, I will likely wait for an HDMI 2.1 receiver which does everything in one shot. But I'd rather buy Atmos over HDMI 2.0a immediately than wait.

Don't get confused, it's all about the bandwidth.


HDMI2.0a and 2.0b are 600MHz, so anything 600MHz from any GPU including GTX1180 from your link will work on your AVR. (possibly some features will fail if not implemented on AVR by manufacturer, like VRR/ALLM, etc..)
But any video signal in existence today like 4K60 4:2:2 12b HDR will work perfectly or 4K24 4:4:4 12b HDR with all Audio format in existence today will work just fine. (or can be made to work with device such as ours)


We don't have any plan for HDMI2.1 at the moment, simply because we haven't seen any real HDMI2.1 1500MHz/48Gbps pipeline working thru HDMI cables.
So time will tell if this GPU is capable of 1500MHz/48Gbps output from it's HDMI output to a typical HDMI cable/connector (that haven't evolved since more than a decade) and providing reliable video/audio link to a 1500MHz/48Gbps display.
Given the nightmare 18Gbps cable still is... it will be interested to see how this plays out


And assuming you have all that working, the next question is what kind of content you will play to take any advantages of the bandwidth, said otherwise, working 1500MHz/48Gbps is not for tomorrow. you might even not see it next year fully.
And by the time it goes mainstream, we will have a design for it if needed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrTim

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
4K60 4:2:2 12b 600MHz over HDbaseT at 70m ;)

Following previous announcement for HDR to SDR conversion using HDfury X4


We also managed to play 4K60 4:2:2 12b HDR over HDbaseT at 70m, some very good stuff ahead guys ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: BattleAxeVR and gsr

·
Banned
Joined
·
868 Posts
We don't have any plan for HDMI2.1 at the moment, simply because we haven't seen any real HDMI2.1 1500MHz/48Gbps pipeline working thru HDMI cables.

So time will tell if this GPU is capable of 1500MHz/48Gbps output from it's HDMI output to a typical HDMI cable/connector (that haven't evolved since more than a decade) and providing reliable video/audio link to a 1500MHz/48Gbps display.
Given the nightmare 18Gbps cable still is... it will be interested to see how this plays out

And assuming you have all that working, the next question is what kind of content you will play to take any advantages of the bandwidth, said otherwise, working 1500MHz/48Gbps is not for tomorrow. you might even not see it next year fully.
And by the time it goes mainstream, we will have a design for it if needed.
You're absolutely right that HDMI 2.0a is 100% sufficient for UHD Blurays and 24 fps content, and HDMI 2.1 has a number of possible bandwidths, including 18, 20, 40, and 48 gbps.

Even increasing from 18 to 20 gbps would be terrific for PC users, as it would allow HDR10+ at 4K60 in 4:4:4. And of course 40 gbps allows 4K 120hz HDR10+ in 4:4:4.

There are already gamer TVs which can do 120hz G-sync over DisplayPort 1.4, and HDMI 2.1 would allow 4K 120hz with Freesync (VRR). All of those things are good reasons to make a future HD Fury product which allows us to buy or use our existing HDMI 2.0a AVRs for Atmos duty while bypassing the 18gbps bandwidth limit for video.

Since the new Geforce 1180s are rumoured to come out in a month with HDMI 2.1 (who knows what bandwidth limits), it would be a good idea to be able to plan ahead. We're counting on you HD Fury! I want to be able to buy an HDMI 2.0a AVR and not be screwed. Videogames are a huge market and HDMI 2.1 splitters and downscalers would serve a good market niche that we all know is coming: HDMI 2.0a is about to become obsolete and there are thousands, even millions, of HDMI 2.0a audio devices out there that will not be able to forward more bandwidth.

This really does only matter for 8K or gamers, I agree, but gaming is a massive consumer market and we spend money on such things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
You're absolutely right that HDMI 2.0a is 100% sufficient for UHD Blurays and 24 fps content, and HDMI 2.1 has a number of possible bandwidths, including 18, 20, 40, and 48 gbps.

Even increasing from 18 to 20 gbps would be terrific for PC users, as it would allow HDR10+ at 4K60 in 4:4:4. And of course 40 gbps allows 4K 120hz HDR10+ in 4:4:4.

There are already gamer TVs which can do 120hz G-sync over DisplayPort 1.4, and HDMI 2.1 would allow 4K 120hz with Freesync (VRR). All of those things are good reasons to make a future HD Fury product which allows us to buy or use our existing HDMI 2.0a AVRs for Atmos duty while bypassing the 18gbps bandwidth limit for video.

Since the new Geforce 1180s are rumoured to come out in a month with HDMI 2.1 (who knows what bandwidth limits), it would be a good idea to be able to plan ahead. We're counting on you HD Fury! I want to be able to buy an HDMI 2.0a AVR and not be screwed. Videogames are a huge market and HDMI 2.1 splitters and downscalers would serve a good market niche that we all know is coming: HDMI 2.0a is about to become obsolete and there are thousands, even millions, of HDMI 2.0a audio devices out there that will not be able to forward more bandwidth.

This really does only matter for 8K or gamers, I agree, but gaming is a massive consumer market and we spend money on such things.
Agreed, as said, we will have something in due time, remember that 2.1 was supposed to be out early this year already, having the world first 2.1 source out in a month is good but you still don't know if it will be able to shoot out 1500MHz and there is still no display able to take it and more important, not any cables have been proven working yet for the purpose.


And last but not least, don't forget that anyone jumping on any new HDMI revision, always had disappointment (HDMI 1 could not do 1080p, HDMI 2 is 300MHz only with flawed 2.0 encryption).
The only "good" HDMI 1.x revisions are the one that came later on, such as HDMI1.3 and 1.4
The only "good" HDMI2.0 revisions are the one that came later on, HDMI2.0a and 2.0b


HDMI is very good at making promise, yet, they are not so good at holding them.


We, as a company, cannot just jump on it based on their words or promises, we need real equipment in real life situation to make conclusion and evaluation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
HDR to SDR conversion and ambient light solution




HDfury X4 is now capable of converting 1080p HDR to 1080p SDR for perfect 1080p streaming while gaming in 4K HDR, for ambient light solution or for capture and 1080p display needs.

The difficulty with this HDR to SDR conversion actually does not lie in the algorithmic mapping of HDR PQ signal into the SDR domain but the fact that the result video even when converted with just PQ conversion does not look the same on TV.
Its clear that when a HDR tv goes into HDR mode, it activates processing that is not uniform across different TVs. the image appears somewhat different between HDR TVs based on our experiments.
Therefore, said from another point of view, what you see on HDR TV - when converted back to SDR - does not appear similar on different 1080p screens because the HDR image already was different.
Also, different HDR sources are mastered for different target nits. Some for 1100 / 1400 or 4000 or 10000 nits. Regular SDR is 300nits. So converting and scaling from a moving target into 300nits is another issue. Sometimes image is darker and sometimes lighter.
All these taken into account the product needs a robust color processing in addition to PQ conversion. We have done just that and thats why the delay to do it. Here is the first iteration of all the color algos + PQ conversion done and to us they look good already.
All images are from PS4 4k60 422 12b 600MHz HDR. We are looking at the menus when pausing a game to keep the system in HDR.
The first image is on LG HDR TV. its the reference:




The second image is now a Vertex downscaled to 1080p60 444 12 bit HDR shown without any processing on a regular TV. This is how all TVs will show a HDR image. You see its all washed-out and suboptimal.
No amount of TV brightness/contrast/tone/etc control will bring this image any better. HDR on a SDR TV just looks bad because it looses all nits between 300 and the target..(1400/10000)



This last image is the same 1080p signal but now processed through our new algos on X4:






Ambient light solution
While converting HDR to SDR is already a needed feature for ambient light solution to operate correctly when playing HDR content, we went further and added a led driver directly on the X4 thru the existing 3D emitter output. Stay tuned, work in progress.




Short video clip demo on YT:
HDR to SDR Beta 0.1 Firmware available from HDfury X4 product page, here: https://www.hdfury.com/product/hdfury-x4/
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: DrTim and Manni01

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Ok i will test it today in the evening i think. What i have to adjust at the Vertex and the X4 for HDR to SDR? I think Vertex is nothing new to do. My X4 Scaler is kompletly new. So i have only do a Firmeware update and thats it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
Ok i will test it today in the evening i think. What i have to adjust at the Vertex and the X4 for HDR to SDR? I think Vertex is nothing new to do. My X4 Scaler is kompletly new. So i have only do a Firmeware update and thats it?

Understand it's in very early beta stage, so you can easily mess up and get no picture if you play with dip switch for example, also, we haven't yet tested all possible incoming signals.
So if you want to experiment the current beta, I would suggest you to join our discord server or that you create a X4 owners thread on AVSforum


You have access to some profile on top buttons as seen on the below video, so based on the incoming signal you can adjust the conversion output.




For setup, nothing to change on Vertex (if it is in AUTOSCALING), X4 must be flashed with Beta HDR to SDR firmware.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Yes i know ist a very early Beta Version. No Problem. I have tested it a Little bit. Looks good for me for a beta. The only Thing i dont like but i think there is no other way to do that is: i have 2 Inputs. PS4 Pro and Nintendo Switch. So when i take my HDR Setup the Nintendo Switch is not good. I have to go to the Setup from the X4 without HDR to SDR. The same if i have a PS4 Game without HDR. Thats no Automatik but ist ok. I think there is no other way to do it. :) For me ist only one click on the X4 because i take the first HDR to SDR.
And yes if i click on the X4 sometimes there is no Signal anymore :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,223 Posts
Yes i know ist a very early Beta Version. No Problem. I have tested it a Little bit. Looks good for me for a beta. The only Thing i dont like but i think there is no other way to do that is: i have 2 Inputs. PS4 Pro and Nintendo Switch. So when i take my HDR Setup the Nintendo Switch is not good. I have to go to the Setup from the X4 without HDR to SDR. The same if i have a PS4 Game without HDR. Thats no Automatik but ist ok. I think there is no other way to do it. :) For me ist only one click on the X4 because i take the first HDR to SDR.
And yes if i click on the X4 sometimes there is no Signal anymore :)

Can you please explain the setup a bit better, I'm not sure I got it right.




Attached is standard hookup for 4K HDR playback on main display from Vertex direct and 1080p SDR for other equipment. if you have a different setup, please try to explain, otherwise it's hard to guess the problem and the answer for me. thanx.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Yes my english is so bad i know. I have a Vertex and a X4 Scaler with the Beta Version. Input Vertex: PS4 Pro and Nintendo Switch. Output Vertex: Sony 4K OLED TV and X4 Scaler (Output X4: Elgato Capture Card for streaming). If PS 4 pro in HDR Mode i have to click on the X4 Scaler once that the Picture is not washed out anymore. Its ok. Next time i play with my Nintendo switch or PS4 without HDR the picture dont look good so i have to click back on the X4. And next time i play with HDR same precedure. It works so its ok but better if the X4 recognize there is no HDR Input i do nothing with the signal only Troughput. But i think its not so easy. :)
I tested yesterday a little bit. God of War HDR, Uncharted HDR and Detroit become Human HDR. If you have Detroit become Human you have to look the Start Screen. Thats not good. The game i have played a little bit is ok. But the start screen look awfull. Its no Problem only a hint where you can look at.
And sometimes i change the Picture Mode on the X4 there is no Signal any longer. Sometime it works fine to change the setting of HDR sometimes not. I dont know why.
 
2901 - 2920 of 4955 Posts
Top