[jlm]

Given that this processor will be outputting the claimed native rates via dvi and analog for many devices, does anyone know if that will actually work?


With the Fujitsu 50" plasma, NR has long been a bugaboo; "trainer dave" seems to claim it ain't happening; Key once made the dvi blaster to deal with this...is that still required?

The pioneer at NR, according to Aurora, still uses its internal scaler, even though its display will say "1280x768 dot-by-dot".


If HD is converted to NR, what exactly has happened to the 1080i original signal?


Is there a functional difference re displaying NR sucessfully between using analog or DVI?


Finally, is there some measurement or test that will determine if the device's scaler has been bypassed?


(there is a related discussion in the plasma forum; this thread is meant to get Key digital's attention)

 

[oferlaor]

Hey John,


I asked them a long while ago about the DVI blaster, and as I understand it, it's already in there.


There are many plasmas and displays that do not actually disable their internal scalers when receiving native rate. However, their calculations are made in a way that what goes in also comes out. There are relatively easy ways to verify if that's true or not by using this pattern:


xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

oxoxoxoxoxoxox

xoxoxoxoxoxoxo


(x being a lit pixel, o being a dark pixel).


In any case, the purpose is not to really disable the internal scaler, but to have it pass whatever it receives unaltered (or with as little changes as possible). Basically, most internal scalers (if you keep sharpness to minimum) will not alter the signal significantly when they receive native rate.


The real question is if they will offer custom timing options, that will let you add new rates if those are found (usually through trial and error and powerstrip).

 

[jlm]

no other comments?


this processor is supposed to kick butt re NR, right?

 

[oferlaor]

John,


You'll have to wait patiently with the rest of us for the reviews to start coming out...

 

[doody]

well, you definitely have to WAIT but whether or not you want to be patient about it is your own decision .


doody.

 

[oferlaor]



 

[jlm]

my questions were intended to be more about whether a display will work with NR and less about the Leeza.


Key has stated a very different opinion from aurora about how the Pioneer deals with NR, for example.


you would think the device side of NR would be explainable without the source product in hand.

 

[doody]

that's an EXCELLENT question, jlm. i'd very much like to hear both Immersive and KeyDigital chime in on this point and give us their opinions, experiences, and data on whether or not they believe bypassing the internal electronics is or is not doable, and if it isn't doable, whether they will advise their cusotmers to ship via their units NR or some other rate (as aurora seems to be advocating).


KeyDigital?


Immersive?


doody.

 

[oferlaor]

doody & John,


I doubt you'll hear much talk from them as they are both working hard on releasing these products very soon.


From what we've heard, Aurora is using a standard signal (720p) instead of a native rate signal. That means that the internal scaler has to adjust both frame rate and native rate.


As I understand KeyDigital was able to reach native rate. This effectively disables the internal scaler (because its output is almost identical to the input). Aurora is saying that the native rate is not so critical in improving the PQ, and that there are tearing problems pumping Native rate to particular screens (e.g., Pioneers).


HOWEVER, with all other displays, we've seen substantial PQ improvements when the internal scalers are completely disabled and native rate is employed.


The original LEEZA had a DVI blaster that forced certain screens to go native rate. There has not been a lot published about this option, and all people would say is that it would magically force the screens to go native rate...


Personally, I don't see much point in a scaler that does a half-job and still requires a second scaler to go to native rate...

 

[markrubin]

Aurora's comments that when the Pioneer is displaying 'dot by dot' on the screen that it is not truly running at NR, and the Pio scaler is still working, really got me thinking


Aurora has been doing third party card work longer (I think) than any other company for the Pioneer 50 and I respect their expertise


I hope Key Digital and the aSim have a solution for true NR on BOTH the Pioneer and the Fujitsu over DVI/HDCP but I am beginning to wonder: would sure like to hear from them!-


if someone offers a true NR scaler for the Fujitsu P50 that would be an interesting and desirable product


Mark

 

[michaellucky]

Quote:

Originally posted by markrubin Aurora's comments that when the Pioneer is displaying 'dot by dot' on the screen that it is not truly running at NR, and the Pio scaler is still working, really got me thinking Aurora has been doing third party card work longer (I think) than any other company for the Pioneer 50 and I respect their expertise I hope Key Digital and the aSim have a solution for true NR on BOTH the Pioneer and the Fujitsu over DVI/HDCP but I am beginning to wonder: would sure like to hear from them!- if someone offers a true NR scaler for the Fujitsu P50 that would be an interesting and desirable product Mark

Dear Mark


HD Leeza enables Fujitusu 50 inch in RGB or DVI NO PROBLEM, dot by dot as well as Pioneer plasma. We tested both units last week. As soon as HD Leeza took over all controls were disabled and all scaling was done by HD Leeza. This was one of our delays, how to enable DOT by DOT, otherwise whats the point?


It is understandable for people stop believing becuase its REALLY hard to implement with these plasma's but Mike T cracked the internal specs inside of these plasma's. I really dont want to say to much becuase its useless until you see the actual unit in action. Very soon this forum will be sparked with more conversation on this issue as users will post and report all there experiences with HD Leeza.

Thank you

 

[markrubin]

Michael


Excellent - that is the news we were hoping to hear!!


Mark

 

[jlm]

yipee... the Key man has spoken.

 

[Cclear]

thanks again michael!!

 

[michaellucky]

Dear Mark, JLM, Cclear


We would like to Thank you as well!

Thank you

 

[Jim Boden]

This dot-by-dot business with Pioneers is confusing. The technical manual states that it’s for “optimal†picture quality, but they don’t really say if the panel scales the picture.


My Faroudja NRS is 1280 x 768 and the Pioneer says it’s displaying dot by dot. In this case, I’ve always made the assumption the panel is doing no scaling whatsoever.


Isn’t this also how the original Digital Leeza works?

 

[doody]

jim - there apparently are very few people on planet earth who know for absolute certain, and thus far none of them are explaining in any particular detail.


the aurora guys swear up and down that you can't bypass the internals. key digital says otherwise. i don't know whether or not immersive has said anything about this particular topic.


neither aurora nor key digital are bozos, so something's awry somewhere. i'm prone to believe key digital myself since my understanding is that they spent a LOT of time doing plasma right for the Digital Leeza, and thus hopefully for the HD Leeza as well. but it also seems to be a tricky subject, so it's possible that nobody will spill the beans completely if it's that tricky and hard.


i don't believe KD would jerk us around though on this, so if michael says "it's bypassing" then i for one am inclined to believe him (and i'm eagerly awaiting the beast).


doody.

 

[markrubin]

Quote:

Originally posted by michaellucky DOT by DOT, otherwise whats the point?

this really says it all: the new line of external scalers must drive the newest DVI/HDCP plasma displays at NR- period


Mark

 

[oferlaor]

doody,


It sounds like both companies swear conflicting things. However, I think it's possible that they're not conflicting.


Aurora says its' impossible to feed the Pio native rate through the internal bus. However, they tried in a certain way and it's possible that another technology on the same bus WOULD work.


I believe that Aurora have succeeded in reaching Native rate, but then they have a problem with tearing because the plasma runs in one speed and they run at another.


Most likely this is where KeyDigital were able to resolve this by somehow working at the same rate as the plasma and being able to prevent the tearing artifact.


I'll bet that Aurora could also fix this issue given enough time and resources, but I think they don't believe the added cost (for development and producing) is worth it for reaching true native rate.


Some people might agree that they wouldn't want to buy a more expensive product that gives you a slight increase in PQ.


At this point, to increase the PQ even by a small amount, means adding significant cost to a product. So, that's why you have products like the Terranex on the market - that have a slightly better PQ at a much higher price (there is a limit to PQ increase for 480i).


People have the choice to be able to decide which product would perform the best at the price point they can afford.


BTW, Key have already done this with the Digital LEEZA and the DVI input, so no reason why it shouldn't work in the same way for both the HD LEEZA and the Pio card.


Jim,


The only way to verify you have native rate is using a patter that looks like (x= pixel on, -= pixel off):


xxxxxxxxxxxx

----------------

xxxxxxxxxxxx

----------------

xxxxxxxxxxxx


And make sure there's no bands. Then, use a pattern like:

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-


If you see clear points, and no grays, it means the internal scaler is effectively disabled.

 

[asinshesq]

We've gone back and forth a million times on the pioneer NR issue and the debate between aurora and KD. I just posted a question about that back and forth in the plasma forum, but let me ask it here as well:


If I get an external HD Leeza, what will happen if I try to output its DVI output into the Aurora card's DVI input? I'm looking for a path for using the HD Leeza for hdcp material and feeding the pioneer 503cmx at NR, but I'm guessing that there is no such path and that I'll be stuck with waiting for the KD card. Is that correct? Is aurora correct that inherently there can never be an hdcp compliant 'dumb' 5002 replacement that passes HD Leeza's DVI singal unchanged and that I could use for these purposes?


Ke Digital, how do you see pioneer owners feeding their plasma's with hdcp signals? Would you advise people to wait till the KD card comes out, or do you envision some other path so that we can use the external HD Leeza and have the best of both worlds?