Who has HDMI 1.4 cables for cheap? My friend just bought one from BB for $200 because they told him he needed it. Im telling him he doesn't need to spend that much. He insist he wants 1.4 and not 1.3. So is there anyone selling cheap 1.4 cables?
Hdmi 1.4
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HDMI adopters have not been allowed to use 1.4 on cables since last November. And won't be able to use any other references to a HDMI versions by this November. There are officially now just "standard HDMI cable" and "high speed HDMI cable" optionally "with ethernet". The speed change came with 1.3. Anything labeled 1.3 should be high speed. There is no speed change with 1.4. The main difference in the new standard is support for an ethernet connection and an audio return channel in the cable. If you don't use these, then you don't need a "1.4" cable.
What Colm says is right. I would add: the Ethernet channel/Audio Return is an optional feature, and so even if a cable is (improperly) called a "1.4" cable by the seller, that doesn't mean it actually has the Ethernet channel. Apart from the addition of the optional Ethernet channel, nothing else about the cable changed from 1.3 to 1.4.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Actually, one other note: Colm said that "Anything labeled 1.3 should be high speed." That's not correct; 1.3 certifications were issued both for high speed and standard speed, so if you know a cable has a 1.3 cert, that doesn't tell you it is a high speed cable. You need to know whether it is 1.3 Category 1 (standard speed) or Category 2 (high speed).
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Kurt,
This is where the new labeling requirements could come in handy. What you said would mean there is not necessarily a difference between a 1.1 cable and a 1.3 cable if the cable has not been certified to the appropriate category. I, probably like just about everyone else here, would think that any cable labeled 1.3 was designed to meet the speed requirements of the 1.3 spec. The only question being for what distance. So is certification to category 2 mandatory for anything labeled high speed?
This is where the new labeling requirements could come in handy. What you said would mean there is not necessarily a difference between a 1.1 cable and a 1.3 cable if the cable has not been certified to the appropriate category. I, probably like just about everyone else here, would think that any cable labeled 1.3 was designed to meet the speed requirements of the 1.3 spec. The only question being for what distance. So is certification to category 2 mandatory for anything labeled high speed?
Yes, and that's a good example of just why the new labeling standards are coming into force. People have often assumed that if 1.3, for example, allows higher bitrates, then a 1.3 certified cable will support those bitrates--but this is not necessarily so. Likewise, on sources and displays, it's important to remember that most of the features supported by an HDMI spec version are optional--so, for example, 1.3 introduced new audio formats, but the fact that a DVD player is 1.3 compliant does not mean that it supports any of those formats.
With cables, this has been exploited quite heavily. Some of the cables in the retail stores, for example (one brand comes readily to my mind, and readily to yours, too, I'm sure...) have been deceptively multi-tiered by using logos and emblems to indicate features. For example, some would bear labels for x.v.YCC colorspace, or for new audio formats, while the cheaper cables from this particular vendor would omit those logos and emblems. The suggestion, of course, is that the cheap cable doesn't support those features while the expensive one does--utter nonsense, since those features have nothing to do with the cable construction and don't even affect the bitrate.
So, to go back to your question again: yes, Category 2 testing is mandatory for anything which will be labeled "high speed." Anything which hasn't been Category 2 tested but has an ATC certificate is Category 1, and will be labeled "standard speed." Anything which has the Ethernet channel will so indicate, so there are four categories of HDMI cable (five, if you count automotive, but there won't be much of that): standard speed without ethernet, standard with, high speed without ethernet, high speed with.
And yes, part of what this is meant to point out is that a 1.1 cable is not, by virtue of spec version alone, presumptively lower-performance than a 1.3 cable. Since prior to 1.3 there was no category 2, and prior to 1.4 there was no ethernet channel, any "1.1" or "1.2" cable is a standard speed cable without ethernet; but a 1.3 or 1.4 cable may also be a standard speed cable without ethernet, so it's really the speed testing, and the ethernet channel testing, which are relevant rather than the spec version.
Incidentally, one element of the new labeling requirements is that we should also see the removal of deceptive notations like "Ultra High Speed" and the like...good riddance to those, which have caused customers no end of confusion.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
With cables, this has been exploited quite heavily. Some of the cables in the retail stores, for example (one brand comes readily to my mind, and readily to yours, too, I'm sure...) have been deceptively multi-tiered by using logos and emblems to indicate features. For example, some would bear labels for x.v.YCC colorspace, or for new audio formats, while the cheaper cables from this particular vendor would omit those logos and emblems. The suggestion, of course, is that the cheap cable doesn't support those features while the expensive one does--utter nonsense, since those features have nothing to do with the cable construction and don't even affect the bitrate.
So, to go back to your question again: yes, Category 2 testing is mandatory for anything which will be labeled "high speed." Anything which hasn't been Category 2 tested but has an ATC certificate is Category 1, and will be labeled "standard speed." Anything which has the Ethernet channel will so indicate, so there are four categories of HDMI cable (five, if you count automotive, but there won't be much of that): standard speed without ethernet, standard with, high speed without ethernet, high speed with.
And yes, part of what this is meant to point out is that a 1.1 cable is not, by virtue of spec version alone, presumptively lower-performance than a 1.3 cable. Since prior to 1.3 there was no category 2, and prior to 1.4 there was no ethernet channel, any "1.1" or "1.2" cable is a standard speed cable without ethernet; but a 1.3 or 1.4 cable may also be a standard speed cable without ethernet, so it's really the speed testing, and the ethernet channel testing, which are relevant rather than the spec version.
Incidentally, one element of the new labeling requirements is that we should also see the removal of deceptive notations like "Ultra High Speed" and the like...good riddance to those, which have caused customers no end of confusion.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Joined
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657 Posts
To add to Kurt already excellent answer.
Any 1.1 or 1.2 (true certified) cable is by HDMI LLC requirement a 1080P 5G cable while a 1.3 cat/1 (true certified) is NOT.
HDMI LLC 1.3 cat/1 cable is by spec only 1080i.
From www.hdmi.org
"Standard (or category 1) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal."
This makes a 1.1 or 1.2 cable (true certified) a more capable cable than 1.3 standard.
Any 1.1 or 1.2 (true certified) cable is by HDMI LLC requirement a 1080P 5G cable while a 1.3 cat/1 (true certified) is NOT.
HDMI LLC 1.3 cat/1 cable is by spec only 1080i.
From www.hdmi.org
"Standard (or category 1) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal."
This makes a 1.1 or 1.2 cable (true certified) a more capable cable than 1.3 standard.
jbachmann:
The cables we sell are all compliant under the latest standard, and at Category 1 or Category 2 as indicated on our site. We are, as an HDMI licensee, quite literally prohibited by our Adopter Agreement from using words like "1.4 cable" to describe that fact. Not wanting to get into a trademark licensing spat with HDMI licensing, I am not going to use that terminology.
The only thing which our cables do not do and which is provided for under the 1.4 specification (as an OPTIONAL feature--so "1.4 compliant," even if the terminology were not prohibited, would not mean anything here--a "1.4 compliant cable," if such a description were permissible, might have it or not) is the Ethernet channel. Just within the last week I have shipped spools of our new Ethernet-capable cable to our assembler in Dongguan for sample production. Actual "with-Ethernet" production is still a few months off, because we have not had UL burn tests for in-wall rating nor have we submitted the cables for ATC certification. Once we have those in hand, we'll start producing an Ethernet-enabled HDMI cable.
By the way: for what it's worth, I am personally convinced that this Ethernet channel is a silly idea, and that it will not be widely implemented on home theater devices. It just doesn't make sense to stick a kludgy 1-pair send/wait/receive ethernet protocol into devices which can already be hooked up with dirt-cheap CAT5 cables terminated with plain old RJ-45s and without having to alter the Ethernet protocol to run on a single pair. I will not be very surprised, in fact, if it is never used by anyone, on anything, ever.
Kurt
HDMI Cable from Blue Jeans Cable
The cables we sell are all compliant under the latest standard, and at Category 1 or Category 2 as indicated on our site. We are, as an HDMI licensee, quite literally prohibited by our Adopter Agreement from using words like "1.4 cable" to describe that fact. Not wanting to get into a trademark licensing spat with HDMI licensing, I am not going to use that terminology.
The only thing which our cables do not do and which is provided for under the 1.4 specification (as an OPTIONAL feature--so "1.4 compliant," even if the terminology were not prohibited, would not mean anything here--a "1.4 compliant cable," if such a description were permissible, might have it or not) is the Ethernet channel. Just within the last week I have shipped spools of our new Ethernet-capable cable to our assembler in Dongguan for sample production. Actual "with-Ethernet" production is still a few months off, because we have not had UL burn tests for in-wall rating nor have we submitted the cables for ATC certification. Once we have those in hand, we'll start producing an Ethernet-enabled HDMI cable.
By the way: for what it's worth, I am personally convinced that this Ethernet channel is a silly idea, and that it will not be widely implemented on home theater devices. It just doesn't make sense to stick a kludgy 1-pair send/wait/receive ethernet protocol into devices which can already be hooked up with dirt-cheap CAT5 cables terminated with plain old RJ-45s and without having to alter the Ethernet protocol to run on a single pair. I will not be very surprised, in fact, if it is never used by anyone, on anything, ever.
Kurt
HDMI Cable from Blue Jeans Cable
Joined
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179 Posts
I thought that 1.4 cables with ethernet were designed to be used with the new 3D players coming out ? I guess I was wrong.
Also, why is it necessary to have so many different kinds of hdmi cables if they are all backwards compatible ? It does not cost anymore to produce a cat 2 cable than a cat 1 cable (at least it does not cost significantly more to purchase ). It just confuses the consumer.
Why not eliminate the 1.2 cable and keep the 1.3 until 1.4 becomes widespread and then get rid of 1.3 ? It makes sense to me.
I thought that 1.4 cables with ethernet were designed to be used with the new 3D players coming out ? I guess I was wrong.
Also, why is it necessary to have so many different kinds of hdmi cables if they are all backwards compatible ? It does not cost anymore to produce a cat 2 cable than a cat 1 cable (at least it does not cost significantly more to purchase ). It just confuses the consumer.
Why not eliminate the 1.2 cable and keep the 1.3 until 1.4 becomes widespread and then get rid of 1.3 ? It makes sense to me.
The Ethernet channel has nothing at all to do with 3D. The only relevance of 3D to cable is that it does affect the bitrate, and anything that's high-def and 3D is going to, theoretically at least, require a "Category 2" cable. The bitrate/bandwidth spec, though, has not changed at all from 1.3 to 1.4, so there's no change there.
Well, the idea of the new naming convention is to simplify things and focus the consumer's attention on the attributes that matter, so that the confusing use of version numbers no longer is a problem.
As for Category 2 and Category 1: well, the reason that Category 1 cables go on being produced is that there are many situations where a Category 2 cable can't be produced without going to active circuitry. For example, our Series-F2 28 AWG cable is Category 2 compliant to 15 feet, but Category 1 compliant to 25 (and with some minor tweaks we're expecting to stretch that to 30 soon). You won't find a Chinese 28 AWG cable that is compliant at those lengths, and the cost of the cable is indeed a consideration there--bonding the pairs costs money, and so at 15 feet in 28 AWG, for example, it actually does cost more to make a Category 2 cable--about 300 to 400% more on a per-foot basis, in fact.
The reason, simply, is that 1.3 and 1.4 don't contain any provisions that make a 1.2 cable noncompliant. A 1.2-certified cable is, under the revised nomenclature, a "Standard Speed" cable without Ethernet. Likewise, a 1.3 cable is not noncompliant under 1.4; it just lacks Ethernet, which is an optional feature (and, as I've said, one which I do not expect to catch on).
Much of the confusion over spec versions flows from the fact that the spec versions really are not intended to designate for the consumer what the device capabilities are. For example, 1.4 provides for 3D, but a device which does not provide for 3D is not thereby rendered noncompliant--3D, like almost all HDMI features, is an optional, not a mandatory, feature. So, if I tell you that I have a DVD player which is 1.4 compliant, it really tells you nothing other than that the player has HDMI. You don't know, from the "1.4" designation, whether it supports Deep Color, alternative colorspaces, alternative audio formats, 3D, et cetera--to know whether it does, you've got to look at the specific features of the player. And, just as with cable, if I own a 1.3 DVD player, that player isn't rendered noncompliant with 1.4 just because it hasn't been tested under 1.4--the idea is that all compliant devices and cables should work with all compliant devices and cables, but that the existence of a feature on one device or cable will not cause that feature to work unless all necessary parts of the system accommodate it. So, for example, a 3D player should be able to play conventional 2D correctly into a non-3D display, if both are HDMI compliant, but it'll only play 3D into the display if the display is also a 3D display. A DVD player that contains the barest minimum HDMI implementation, with no special features, is still going to be 1.4 compliant as long as it interacts correctly with other devices; and the protocols are written such that if it was compliant under 1.1, it will still be compliant under 1.4.
Kurt
HDMI Cable at Blue Jeans Cable
The Ethernet channel has nothing at all to do with 3D. The only relevance of 3D to cable is that it does affect the bitrate, and anything that's high-def and 3D is going to, theoretically at least, require a "Category 2" cable. The bitrate/bandwidth spec, though, has not changed at all from 1.3 to 1.4, so there's no change there.
Well, the idea of the new naming convention is to simplify things and focus the consumer's attention on the attributes that matter, so that the confusing use of version numbers no longer is a problem.
As for Category 2 and Category 1: well, the reason that Category 1 cables go on being produced is that there are many situations where a Category 2 cable can't be produced without going to active circuitry. For example, our Series-F2 28 AWG cable is Category 2 compliant to 15 feet, but Category 1 compliant to 25 (and with some minor tweaks we're expecting to stretch that to 30 soon). You won't find a Chinese 28 AWG cable that is compliant at those lengths, and the cost of the cable is indeed a consideration there--bonding the pairs costs money, and so at 15 feet in 28 AWG, for example, it actually does cost more to make a Category 2 cable--about 300 to 400% more on a per-foot basis, in fact.
The reason, simply, is that 1.3 and 1.4 don't contain any provisions that make a 1.2 cable noncompliant. A 1.2-certified cable is, under the revised nomenclature, a "Standard Speed" cable without Ethernet. Likewise, a 1.3 cable is not noncompliant under 1.4; it just lacks Ethernet, which is an optional feature (and, as I've said, one which I do not expect to catch on).
Much of the confusion over spec versions flows from the fact that the spec versions really are not intended to designate for the consumer what the device capabilities are. For example, 1.4 provides for 3D, but a device which does not provide for 3D is not thereby rendered noncompliant--3D, like almost all HDMI features, is an optional, not a mandatory, feature. So, if I tell you that I have a DVD player which is 1.4 compliant, it really tells you nothing other than that the player has HDMI. You don't know, from the "1.4" designation, whether it supports Deep Color, alternative colorspaces, alternative audio formats, 3D, et cetera--to know whether it does, you've got to look at the specific features of the player. And, just as with cable, if I own a 1.3 DVD player, that player isn't rendered noncompliant with 1.4 just because it hasn't been tested under 1.4--the idea is that all compliant devices and cables should work with all compliant devices and cables, but that the existence of a feature on one device or cable will not cause that feature to work unless all necessary parts of the system accommodate it. So, for example, a 3D player should be able to play conventional 2D correctly into a non-3D display, if both are HDMI compliant, but it'll only play 3D into the display if the display is also a 3D display. A DVD player that contains the barest minimum HDMI implementation, with no special features, is still going to be 1.4 compliant as long as it interacts correctly with other devices; and the protocols are written such that if it was compliant under 1.1, it will still be compliant under 1.4.
Kurt
HDMI Cable at Blue Jeans Cable
Joined
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179 Posts
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I am sure many others will learn something new as well.
One more question...if a 1.4 hdmi cable has ethernet capabilities, then that means that it is able to be used to go online. And it eliminates the need for another ethernet cable to be connected between ...for example.....the tv and the modem/router or the blu ray player and the modem ?
Is that the only benefit ? Basically a way to eliminate cable clutter ?
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I am sure many others will learn something new as well.
One more question...if a 1.4 hdmi cable has ethernet capabilities, then that means that it is able to be used to go online. And it eliminates the need for another ethernet cable to be connected between ...for example.....the tv and the modem/router or the blu ray player and the modem ?
Is that the only benefit ? Basically a way to eliminate cable clutter ?
Yes, that's the idea. So, obviously, in any system where there's Ethernet in use, at least one device would have to be wired to the nearest Ethernet hub in conventional fashion, either using CAT 5 cable or a wireless link. Then, that Ethernet connection could be shared through HDMI cable with the other devices in the system.
Part of the problem with this arrangement is that effectively, since one cannot know what the system configuration will be in each system, every device which is Ethernet-capable through HDMI has to be set up as a sort of hub--and not just a conventional hub, but one which can handle both HDMI-style connections (run on a single pair) and conventional Ethernet (run on two pairs). This being so, it will be necessary to equip any such device with a conventional Ethernet jack, and once one does that, the only advantage of having Ethernet over HDMI is that you don't need quite as many 75-cent patch cords as you otherwise would. I just can't see that being a compelling need for anyone, and don't really think it'll catch on.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Part of the problem with this arrangement is that effectively, since one cannot know what the system configuration will be in each system, every device which is Ethernet-capable through HDMI has to be set up as a sort of hub--and not just a conventional hub, but one which can handle both HDMI-style connections (run on a single pair) and conventional Ethernet (run on two pairs). This being so, it will be necessary to equip any such device with a conventional Ethernet jack, and once one does that, the only advantage of having Ethernet over HDMI is that you don't need quite as many 75-cent patch cords as you otherwise would. I just can't see that being a compelling need for anyone, and don't really think it'll catch on.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
No; no need for new cables, unless the old ones stop working when you plug in the new gear, which is unlikely but possible.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Joined
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1,583 Posts
Hi Kurt,
If I am not planning to use the Ethernet channel function, will your Series 1(30ft.) n F2(6ft.) cables(which I am using now) will be good enough for 3D signal. Signal will be travelling from my Media player(F2, 6ft.) to Pioneer SC25 receiver, n then directly to(Series 1, 30ft.) the Sony HW15 projector.
Urgently await your answer since the 30ft. one is inside a conduit above the drop ceiling which is troublesome to replace. Thanks.
If I am not planning to use the Ethernet channel function, will your Series 1(30ft.) n F2(6ft.) cables(which I am using now) will be good enough for 3D signal. Signal will be travelling from my Media player(F2, 6ft.) to Pioneer SC25 receiver, n then directly to(Series 1, 30ft.) the Sony HW15 projector.
Urgently await your answer since the 30ft. one is inside a conduit above the drop ceiling which is troublesome to replace. Thanks.
ac388: While technically that's a shade outside of the range of spec compliance, I would not worry about it in the least. One of the interesting things about the bonded-pair cables is that, as I mentioned in another thread, they actually exceed the spec very comfortably at the extreme high-speed end of the Category 2 spectrum, where equalization in receiving circuits is the norm (I think our back-of-envelope calcs had the eye pattern for Series-1 failing at 3.4 Gbps around 80 feet; we didn't have it formally tested at that distance because it would have failed the 1.65 Gbps test quite badly due to the lack of equalization). As you go up to these very high-bandwidth applications like 3D, the Series-1 should not give you any trouble at all unless you're running silly distances, and the Series-F2 is great at high speed, too--so the addition of the 6-footer to the chain, while it'll contribute a bit more attenuation, should not cause you any trouble.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Edit/P.S.: Actually, on second thought, the 6-footer won't contribute any more attenuation; I neglected to take into account the fact that it's going into a receiver which will strip audio and repeat the video--so it's a fresh HDMI signal as it comes out of the receiver. And the 6-footer will definitely handle any data rate you want it to take--the F2 is certified Category 2 to 15 feet.
Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Edit/P.S.: Actually, on second thought, the 6-footer won't contribute any more attenuation; I neglected to take into account the fact that it's going into a receiver which will strip audio and repeat the video--so it's a fresh HDMI signal as it comes out of the receiver. And the 6-footer will definitely handle any data rate you want it to take--the F2 is certified Category 2 to 15 feet.
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