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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is the thread where you can vent your frustration on the terrible state of the HDMI 'one connector' solution

With the advent of 4K and HDR, the issues of getting a stable, reliable HDMI connection are so bad, that I fear many average consumers will return their new products and simply refuse to participate. Here are some problems I read on AVS everyday:

-HDMI cables marked certified do not always work
-HDMI cables longer than (insert your distance here: say 20 feet) do not work
-AVR's/processors used as repeater devices are problematic: now you need two HDMI cables: wonder who thought that one up?
-ARC/CEC poorly implemented
-setup of a new 4K display, and HDR sources, cannot be easily done by the average consumer

this is only a partial list: why would the HDMI organization make it so difficult? the idea of the HDMI connector was to simplify cabling so all devices would require only a single cable and it would be plug and play? it is a real mess and I think the industry should be ashamed

Feel free to vent your frustrations here: but please keep it civil and stick to technical issues
 

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Two of the biggest failures with HDMI are HDMI/CEC and HDMI/ARC. The former has limited functionality (even when all of your devices are from the same manufacturer), and the latter is virtually useless due to its lack of support for advanced audio codecs like DTA-HD MA & Dolby TrueHD. Try using both features at once, and you're likely to encounter random input switching on your AVR, along with episodes of complete loss of audio from some of your devices.
 

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^^^^^ lack of standardization on the CEC protocols. It certainly would have been nice if HDMI.org settled on one set and told hardware mfrs if they wanted to use ARC/CEC, there would only be one set approved . It took HDMI 2.0 with the CEC Extensions to take care of that but too little too late.
 

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...why would the HDMI organization make it so difficult? the idea of the HDMI connector was to simplify cabling so all devices would require only a single cable and it would be plug and play?
HDMI.org sets the "standard", they don't make the cable(s). I don't think they "test/certify" every HDMI hardware/software interface from every potential device either. They just "set the rules" collect a fee and it's up to those that pay a licensing fee to adhere/comply. I'm sure that many cut corners or use their interpretation.


The "HDMI" complaints go back well before UHD and 4K. Nothing new and it ain't gonna get better IMO.;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
HDMI.org sets the "standard", they don't make the cable(s). I don't think they "test/certify" every HDMI hardware/software interface from every potential device either. They just "set the rules" collect a fee and it's up to those that pay a licensing fee to adhere/comply. I'm sure that many cut corners or use their interpretation.
the blame falls squarely on HDMI.org for setting standards that are unobtainable, and not providing sufficient guidance or test certification to help enforce their standards, in my opinion: I would not give them a pass on this mess: they helped create it
 
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By no means am I suggesting they get a pass!


I don't think I would agree that the blame falls squarely on HDMI.org


Their piece of the market is the "standard" setter and licensing fee collector, not the "enforcement" patrol. AFAIK, there is no "official" compliance/certification process, so that is part of the problem. Secondly... if that was mandatory, the cost(s) would be passed on to the consumer.


Thirdly, the consumer has some skin in the too. Seems like everyone wants to have ungodly distances, switches, splitters, active/passive cables, PC's, AVR's..... etc.




Don't get me wrong. I sympathize and agree that HDMI isn't all it was/is cracked up to be. And... hasn't been for well over a decade. How does this get resolved? I don't think HDMI is going away. Other than possibly Display Port (which doesn't seem widely available), it is the only port in this storm. :)
 

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HDMI.org took a small step in the right direction by coming up with certification standards that are followed by various Authorized Testing Centers (ATC's), and registered the name Premium High Speed HDMI, with a counterfeit proof (so far) label so the consumer has a vague idea of what they are purchasing, but unfortunately their testing protocols are not universally accepted so "certification" can mean just about anything. HDMI has been a problematic technology since its inception (a good idea but poorly implemented). HDMI.org should have been more proactive in licensing and testing but it is what it is. I do find them at fault for the mess we are in today and I just don't see it getting any better. Panel technology has far outpaced connection technology and unless something changes on the mfr side of things (Display Port, MHL, etc) it's only going to get worse especially for folk who need a reliable and stable connection longer than about 20'- 25' for the high end video standards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think the Hollywood group that is behind these HDCP protocols should be called out on this debacle: each member should be required to setup his own 4K HDR system without assistance as a start to see what they created

These HDCP protocols are so out of control it is going to turn off the average consumer: if every AVS member responds 'that is the way it is' then it will only get worse

I started warning about copy protection flags and HDCP over 10 yeas ago: but never imagined it could get this bad: this is a bureaucracy out of control: I protest and say this must be fixed
 

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-HDMI cables marked certified do not always work
-HDMI cables longer than (insert your distance here: say 20 feet) do not work
Agree, there should have been better testing & certification from the beginning. It almost too late to even do anything about it now. Of course, the core problem is the attempt to preserve cabling standards as bandwidth increased.

-AVR's/processors used as repeater devices are problematic: now you need two HDMI cables: wonder who thought that one up?
I am not sure I understand this point here? Are you saying that AVRs shouldn't be used as repeaters or are you talking about the fact that older AVRs can't support the new standards so you need two connections?

If it is the latter, I am not sure what you do about that. Bandwidth needs are changing at a meteoric rate and content providers continue to insist on changing the ineffective copy protection schemes.

-setup of a new 4K display, and HDR sources, cannot be done by the average consumer
Is this really an HDMI issue?

Two of the biggest failures with HDMI are HDMI/CEC and HDMI/ARC.
I agree with this. Moreover, this seems to be getting worse not better as time passes. Not only does ARC have serious bandwidth limitations but the intermingling of ARC with CEC causes havoc with all the varying implementations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I am not sure I understand this point here? Are you saying that AVRs shouldn't be used as repeaters or are you talking about the fact that older AVRs can't support the new standards so you need two connections?

If it is the latter, I am not sure what you do about that. Bandwidth needs are changing at a meteoric rate and content providers continue to insist on changing the ineffective copy protection schemes.
not at all: I am saying 4K HDR devices should work properly with HDMI repeater devices such as receivers and processors: it should be plug and play: that was the promise of HDMI

edit: I understand the bandwidth issue but even the latest processors are having issues with HDR: all the manufacturers blame incompatibility issues on other connected devices: there is zero accountability on making it work
 

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not at all: I am saying 4K HDR devices should work properly with HDMI repeater devices such as receivers and processors: it should be plug and play: that was the promise of HDMI
LOL! your check's in the mail and... :D


EVERYONE feels the pain. So, suggestions as to how to get it resolved? :confused:
 

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not at all: I am saying 4K HR devices should work properly with HDMI repeater devices such as receivers and processors: it should be plug and play: that was the promise of HDMI
I guess I am not familiar with the issues people are having as it relates to this. I have had no problems in this regard. As long as everything in the chain supports the latest HDMI/HDCP standards it has been plug and play.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
EVERYONE feels the pain. So, suggestions as to how to get it resolved? :confused:
perhaps it could start here by calling out the industry and saying this should not be allowed to happen: I am serious
 

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EVERYONE feels the pain. So, suggestions as to how to get it resolved? :confused:
The only way that I see is to hit the mfrs (tv''s and cables) where it hurts, in the pocketbook. But that's really only a fantasy because that would mean we'd have to stop purchasing the latest and greatest toys and we all know that's not gonna happen. And there are lots of folks who have no problem at shorter distances and others who buy the "latest" and haven't a clue as to what they really have, want, or need. PQ always looks good on most brand new tv's so my guess is the average consumer doesn't really know the difference between 1080p, HDR, WCG, ad naseum. To call out the industry (which I agree should be done) would take some heavy weights to throw in with us disgruntled consumers.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
there is another option...look here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...y-player-owner-s-thread-159.html#post45516201

you should not need to buy a $2k meter to get EDID's set up properly:

consider a cloud app that reads all connected devices, and automatically adjusts settings as needed, and provides detail steps for user intervention as required:
HDMI.org or some other company e.g. HD Fury could develop this app and charge for it
 

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The only way that I see is to hit the mfrs (tv''s and cables) where it hurts, in the pocketbook. But that's really only a fantasy because that would mean we'd have to stop purchasing the latest and greatest toys and we all know that's not gonna happen. ...
And there ya go. ;)


AVS is a great platform to get things addressed. Start a class action lawsuit? Boycott HDMI? Stop buying A/V gear?


I'm really serious. How do you propose these issues get addressed? AVS is a good launching platform to get things rolling.


Again, from Memory Lane:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1239591-countless-hdmi-complaints.html
 

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I'm really serious. How do you propose these issues get addressed? AVS is a good launching platform to get things rolling.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1239591-countless-hdmi-complaints.html
That is the question isn't it. Maybe if the Admins etc of AVS put together some sort of complaint, petition, poll, what ever, get the members to participate (which wouldn't be hard) and then have someone at AVS with influence present that to the industry. Otherwise the only current options are to purchase all new devices and hope they are compatible, or keep your cable runs under 20'. Both of which are not satisfactory. It's becoming less and less glamorous to be an early adopter. But dammit Jim, we need those early adopters so the rest of us can learn what works and what doesn't before we spend our money!
 

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The unfortunate part is that there are soooo many permutations/configurations for HDMI. I really sympathize.
Wait till 8K becomes available. The only HDMI cable that will work will probably be limited to 3' and must be 18AWG. And.... incompatible with all of your existing (perfectly working) gear purchased a few years ago.


Perhaps a new president will make "A/V Great Again". :eeksurprise:




EDIT:
There are a few "contributing editors" from trade rags that participate on AVS. Maybe they can help?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
another idea is for an AVS member who is an expert on HDMI could start an FAQ thread on HDMI best practices:

for example first FAQ item might look like:

--avoid using CEC/ARC labeled HDMI inputs if you are not using CEC/ARC functions, and be sure all menu settings are off for CEC/ARC

if anyone is interested PM me :)
 

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The technology underlying HDMI is actually super simple. Basically, it's a 19-pin connector. A lot could be done with that with pure simplicity, but nnnnooooooo. HDCP has to go and totally foul it up. That, and cable manufacturers not adhering to some simple standards. Anybody else miss the good ol' days of RCA connections? Technical limitations aside, they were no fuss, no muss. It just worked. Wanna toss on splitters, couplers, whatever? Need to run a bazillion feet of cable? No problem.

At the root of it, HDMI had the potential to be just awesome. Digital audio and hi-def video passed through one standardized connection. Shouldn't be nearly as difficult as the industry (and Hollywood) has made it out to be. The idea of CEC/ARC was great. No clue why every TV/AVR manufacturer saw fit to do it all completely differently. Just get on the same page, everybody!!! (which yes, I know pretty much never happens)
 
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