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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm confused about why most home theater businesses and customers are so quick to dump their non HDMI preprocessors?


I have been using a Rotel 1066 for 5 years. It is a good but not great processor. Recently I went down to the local home theater store in Vegas and they had a Lexicon M-8 preprocessor with the balanced cable upgrade and the upgrade for microphone equalization.


The unit was a demo with a list price of of close to $8,000.00. They sold it to me for a song, lets say at such a discount it would cost more to buy a new Rotel processor. They just couldn't get rid of it because it has no HDMI connections!


For video I connect my new Oppo BD 93 bluray player modified by ASi Teknologies. directly to my 60" pioneer kuro via HDMI and the audio is sent to the lexicon via the oppo's analog and digital outputs.


The new lexicon is far superior to the old rotel. My system's video and audio is outstanding.


Why would people get rid of an excellent piece of equipment just to send HDMI video from the source to the processor? I would presume this set up would just degrade the picture. Of course this presupposes the other zones are being used.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/16910398


Why would people get rid of an excellent piece of equipment just to send HDMI video from the source to the processor? I would presume this set up would just degrade the picture. Of course this presupposes the other zones are being used.

- HDMI is digital, so there should be no degradation using a receiver. I can tell you why I upgraded from my Marantz SR-7400 (non-HDMI) to a Denon 3808ci.


1. The Marantz only had one set of analog inputs, so if I wanted lossless audio from both my HD-DVD, PS3 and future devices, I would need to buy a HDMI switch. You can't get multi-channel lossless from toslink.


2. I've found the bass management, etc. to be lacking on stand alone players. I wanted to apply proper bass management and post processing (Audyssey) to the audio. You can't do that with analog.


3. HDMI inputs. At the time, my TV had one HDMI input. My TV now has 5, so this isn't as useful as it used to be.


The Denon 3808ci also had many other features that I was interested in also.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I understand your reasons but I guess I should have made my question more clear by specifying stand alone processors as opposed to receivers
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/0


Why would people get rid of an excellent piece of equipment just to send HDMI video from the source to the processor? I would presume this set up would just degrade the picture. Of course this presupposes the other zones are being used.

As long as you don't worry about blu ray and lossless/lossy audio then there is no reason. If you have to use analog connections from your BD player then you can not use and DSP functions of the processor and if you do want to and if the processor supports it then you have to run through another ADC/DAC.
 

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Anyone pumping that kind of money into watching movies is likely to want nothing less than TrueHD/DTS-MA. No can do without HDMI. Unless of course you have your BR doing all the decoding and converting to multichannel analog. In which case you might as well toss the pre-pro altogeather.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorrpio /forum/post/16914435


Anyone pumping that kind of money into watching movies is likely to want nothing less than TrueHD/DTS-MA. No can do without HDMI. Unless of course you have your BR doing all the decoding and converting to multichannel analog. In which case you might as well toss the pre-pro altogeather.

^ Is that a fact, or an assumption.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorrpio /forum/post/16914435


Anyone pumping that kind of money into watching movies is likely to want nothing less than TrueHD/DTS-MA. No can do without HDMI. Unless of course you have your BR doing all the decoding and converting to multichannel analog. In which case you might as well toss the pre-pro altogeather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 /forum/post/16914608


^ Is that a fact, or an assumption.

I think it would depend upon the quality of the OPPO's analog stage, as well as it's multichannel processing (and post-processing) capabilities.


It's not clear, i30krab, whether you are using an analog connection for lossless audio. If not, then you are not getting the lossless codecs with only an S/PDIF connection. Which is why you people want HDMI for audio. Even if you use a player's multichannel analog outs for lossless audio, you are limited by the player's quality as well as it's capabilities. Most processors offer much more processing flexibility than that provided by players, which are usually very limited in this respect.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/16910398


I'm confused about why most home theater businesses and customers are so quick to dump their non HDMI preprocessors?


I have been using a Rotel 1066 for 5 years. It is a good but not great processor. Recently I went down to the local home theater store in Vegas and they had a Lexicon M-8 preprocessor with the balanced cable upgrade and the upgrade for microphone equalization.


The unit was a demo with a list price of of close to $8,000.00. They sold it to me for a song, lets say at such a discount it would cost more to buy a new Rotel processor. They just couldn't get rid of it because it has no HDMI connections!


For video I connect my new Oppo BD 93 bluray player modified by ASi Teknologies. directly to my 60" pioneer kuro via HDMI and the audio is sent to the lexicon via the oppo's analog and digital outputs.


The new lexicon is far superior to the old rotel. My system's video and audio is outstanding.


Why would people get rid of an excellent piece of equipment just to send HDMI video from the source to the processor? I would presume this set up would just degrade the picture. Of course this presupposes the other zones are being used.

I don't know if you've seen the article where some industry professionals went to dts and Dolby to compare the older technoligies to the newer, lossless codecs, but the results were surprising.


Since DD and dts on BR are a HBR than they are on DVD, they were virtually indistinguishable from their lossless counterparts. The only concise difference seemed to be between the lossless codecs and their older, low bitrate conterparts on DVD.


IOWs using optical or coax from a BR should give you near lossless performance and there will be no improvement by using HDMI on DVD. So I wouldn't worry one bit about having a non-HDMI processor if you are happy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie /forum/post/16924692


I don't know if you've seen the article where some industry professionals went to dts and Dolby to compare the older technoligies to the newer, lossless codecs, but the results were surprising.


Since DD and dts on BR are a HBR than they are on DVD, they were virtually indistinguishable from their lossless counterparts. The only concise difference seemed to be between the lossless codecs and their older, low bitrate conterparts on DVD.


IOWs using optical or coax from a BR should give you near lossless performance and there will be no improvement by using HDMI on DVD. So I wouldn't worry one bit about having a non-HDMI processor if you are happy.

I really don't pay much attention to lossless codecs or TrueHD/DTS-MA etc.


I know when I play a bluray disc with high quality surround audio tracks I can never hear any difference between these different code settings. I always wondered why this theme was nitpicked to death on the Oppo forum.

All I do know is I'm extremely happy with the sound. It sounds better than being at a theater.


Also I use the new Lexicon in straight 2 channel stereo mode to listen to my tuner and CDs so I don't think I'll be tossing the unit!!LOL


Here is how Doug at AST modifies the audio in the BDP-83,


2ch Analog Output Stage Rebuild using Ultra High Performance Audio Signal Coupling Transformers-


We completely delete the OEM Analog Output stage after the flagship Crystal DAC Chip (all capacitors, analog filtering, opamps, etc) in

favor of a set of Ultra High Performance Audio Signal Coupling Transformers, bypassing ALL of the stock circuitry.


These upgraded transformers add more sparkle and detail and control in the music, The stock output stage is mediocre in build and just "ok" in sound quality. However, there are MANY ACTIVE parts in the signal path, such as

cheap 5532 op-amps for example . There are also many resistors in the signal path as well. This is not the most optimal topology for signal coupling and HF filtering


.



Our approach is purist and instantly effective:

We Completely disconnect the entire active analog output stage, and replace it with a set of high performance audio signal coupling

transformers! Now with the transformers we can now effectively and inherently provide galvanic isolation from other components in your

system. The transformer stops High Frequency noises that occur from other components in your system. The noise floor in your music drops to a

complete dark and black level. More detail comes out of the music. The sound stage appears much larger, wider deeper with a bold

lifelike stance. Our approach is considered "state of the art" and this mod will easily alone take the performance of this unit alone to a

level that is unattainable by most. Output voltage is about 5v and under 200 ohms impedance! Only available here at ASi!


The Superiority of using signal coupling transformers to replace the stock output stage:

~NO SIGNAL RESISTORS! (These ruin signal integrity and limit overall bandwidth)

~NO SIGNAL CAPACITORS! (These mask, veil and blur the music)

~NO OPAMPS! (These are "active" gain/buffering stages that throw off grit due and such to AC mains/fluctuations)

~NO SIGNAL RELAYS! (These add in grit and grain, etc...)

~NO MUTING STAGES! (These add in grit and grain, etc..)

~NO AC MAINS ON THE OUTPUT STAGE! (AC mains will ALWAYS give you less than optimal performance)


We add a set of very high quality WBT Nextgen RCA jacks for the 2ch output section to vastly improve the signal integrity over the stock

jacks!! These jacks have very little contact surface, for the least amount of eddy current distortions for the best sound. These are wired

via ASi custom silver wire and cotton tubing from the optimized 2ch transformer output section.


I also went with the new ClassD Ultra Low Noise Power Supply Upgrade Dedicated Internal Power Supply for any of the clock upgrades installed in our stages of mods/rebuilds.

This ultra high performance power supply (that we further modify and tweak out) will eliminate noise to any of the clocks we install.

This removes the switching supply noises to the clocks power circuit and offers much blacker backgrounds, extra dynamics and

resolution. Video characteristics will improve now there is less noise.


So anyone is welcome to comment on my set up and reasoning.
 

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Not a comment. But I do have two questions.


Have you done a double blind test to see if you can hear the difference between your hot-rodded player and a stock player?


Assuming you haven't done so, how do you know the modifications were worthwhile?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter White /forum/post/16926013


Assuming you haven't done so, how do you know the modifications were worthwhile?

because the person who did the mods told him they were?


i think if i read (paraphrasing) "vastly improve by changing rca jacks" in ad copy, i'd put my hands over my wallet and run...
 

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Many people WON'T ditch their high-end equipment just for HDMI capability, i30krab. You are a case in point. Nothing at all wrong with that. As pointed out, the only reasons to switch to HDMI would be to get the lossless codecs, perhaps get some more processing and post-processing capability relative to what is afforded with a multichannel analog connection, and for the convenience of the single cable HDMI connection.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter White /forum/post/16926013


Not a comment. But I do have two questions.


Have you done a double blind test to see if you can hear the difference between your hot-rodded player and a stock player?


Assuming you haven't done so, how do you know the modifications were worthwhile?



Yes I did because I bought the player direct from Oppo and then I compared it to my modified DV-983H.


Since bluray discs are not created equal it depends how good the disc is to do a comparison and I had very few movies.. I did see a big difference i when playing regular DVDs. The new unit puts out a much better picture and sound.

The wow factor comes in with the audio. Playing regular CDs, regular DVDs

and bluray, the sound is outstanding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj /forum/post/16926313


because the person who did the mods told him they were?


i think if i read (paraphrasing) "vastly improve by changing rca jacks" in ad copy, i'd put my hands over my wallet and run...

Cute!


Please, You really shouldn't make these negative statements unless you have a chance to preview the equipment!
 

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I repeat. when reading ad copy like that, I hide my wallet. such, ummmm, foolishness makes "previewing" equipment unnecessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj /forum/post/16926937


I repeat. when reading ad copy like that, I hide my wallet. such, ummmm, foolishness makes "previewing" equipment unnecessary.

Now you just went from cute to jerk!
 

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i've been called worse...


from merriam:


vast (adjective):very great in size, amount, degree, intensity, or especially in extent or range


synonym: enormous


now... given the definition of "vast"... do you really expect any reasonable person to give any credence to the claim made?


i'm not unreasonable... i'm willing to accept that there is a possibility that slight differences may exist between a "stock" player and a "modded" player... although that "acceptance of possibility" only means that it would be worth conducting a well constrained test...


you asked for comments on "your setup and reasoning"... obviously, you were only looking for comments that reinforced your reasoning, not ones that disagree with it...


there are valid reasons why the term "audiophile" is spat out with disdain... audacious claims with no basis in reality is one of them...
 

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I ditched my Outlaw 950 for a mid range Yamaha receiver so I could use the new formats. I'm using it as a pre/pro, still have my Outlaw amp in the mix. It was cheap enough, I basically broke even on the deal after selling my 950. The sound is fine, the Yamaha does a good job. But I can't say that there was any real improvement over my old setup.


I should start looking at those "old" pre/pro units. I wouldn't mind "downgrading" to a Lexicon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyWest /forum/post/16928064


I ditched my Outlaw 950 for a mid range Yamaha receiver so I could use the new formats. I'm using it as a pre/pro, still have my Outlaw amp in the mix. It was cheap enough, I basically broke even on the deal after selling my 950. The sound is fine, the Yamaha does a good job. But I can't say that there was any real improvement over my old setup.


I should start looking at those "old" pre/pro units. I wouldn't mind "downgrading" to a Lexicon.

That's exactly how I felt when I asked the price of the Lexicon! When he told me they're giving it away, I said I'll downgrade!


I would list the purchase price but I think it;s against the rules.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/16926627


Yes I did because I bought the player direct from Oppo and then I compared it to my modified DV-983H.


Since bluray discs are not created equal it depends how good the disc is to do a comparison and I had very few movies.. I did see a big difference i when playing regular DVDs. The new unit puts out a much better picture and sound.

The wow factor comes in with the audio. Playing regular CDs, regular DVDs

and bluray, the sound is outstanding.

I asked if you did a double blind test. I did not ask if you compared two players. In a double blind test, the listener doesn't know which player he's listening to.


When you compared the two players, did you know which player you were listening to at any moment?
 
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