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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
New HDR TVs like the Samsung JS9500 are already out and more will be coming soon.

Yesterday, Neflix streamed the first HDR contentb(Daredevil) and that trend is only going to build as we approach thevZholidayscand the release of UHD Bluray (which will be based on Rec.2020 instead of Rec.709).

So does anybody have any idea how these HDR TVs will be calibrated?

Seems to me some Rec.2020-based patterns are going to be needed as well as some updates to thevCalibration SW such as HCFR - any of the experienced calibrator's on the Forum have another idea?
 

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Seems to me some Rec.2020-based patterns are going to be needed as well as some updates to thevCalibration SW such as HCFR - any of the experienced calibrator's on the Forum have another idea?
You can target Rec.2020 with HCFR but there are no commercial displays currently available that can reproduce that gamut.
 

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New HDR TVs like the Samsung JS9500 are already out and more will be coming soon.

Yesterday, Neflix streamed the first HDR contentb(Daredevil) and that trend is only going to build as we approach thevZholidayscand the release of UHD Bluray (which will be based on Rec.2020 instead of Rec.709).

So does anybody have any idea how these HDR TVs will be calibrated?

Seems to me some Rec.2020-based patterns are going to be needed as well as some updates to thevCalibration SW such as HCFR - any of the experienced calibrator's on the Forum have another idea?
I guess it would depend on whether the HDR stuff is above 235?
it is good to leave and calibrate out to 110% now, I don't know what HDR will need?
 

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Honestly, until BluRays are authored in HDR, it seems like a waste of time. You have to use the built-in NetFlix app, and in my experience apps running on TVs don't process video the same way. On Panasonic TVs, you can turn color to 0 or 100 and it makes no difference in NetFlix, everything's constantly oversaturated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You can target Rec.2020 with HCFR but there are no commercial displays currently available that can reproduce that gamut.
OK, so you can choose Rec.2020 and the calibrate at 75%/75% (since no TVs will actually achieve Rec.2020 for the foreseeable future, that's probably the best that can be done for now).

Does that mean the the patterns used are the same and it is just the reference used to comput dEs that change when you calibrate for Rec.2020 instead of Rec.709?

And color checker patterns remain unchanged or are new Color Checker Patterns needed?

And since there is some talk of starting HDR with DCI-P3 instead of full Rec.2020, is that something HCFR will already support?
 

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The pattern sources are just RGB triplets so they won't change, what changes is the encoding for transport to the device. So you need Rec.2020 encoded video or an upscaler that will map the Rec.709 matrix to Rec.2020 (just like we used to do with SD->HD up conversion) so that the display knows to decode using the correct matrix to get the proper RGB triplet. Then you tune the display to reproduce whatever gamut was used to master the material that you are calibrating for, Rec.2020 or DCI-P3, whatever it turns out to be. I doubt there will be any Rec.2020 material for quite awhile (if ever).
 

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The latest display technology hasn't even hit full DCI-P3 yet, it will be 3-5 years before we get full BT.2020 standard equipment. Also, DD is streaming in 4K but I am almost positive that it's not HDR.

People that attended the Samsung conference got HDR mastered material on thumbdrives of Exodus and Life of Pi; with Netflix stating they would start streaming HDR content later this year. I'd love to be wrong though so please do inform lol. I like the idea of having HDR content ready to go already.
 

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Honestly, until BluRays are authored in HDR, it seems like a waste of time. You have to use the built-in NetFlix app, and in my experience apps running on TVs don't process video the same way. On Panasonic TVs, you can turn color to 0 or 100 and it makes no difference in NetFlix, everything's constantly oversaturated.
NetFlix is that bad, is it?
 

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NetFlix is that bad, is it?
It's not Netflix itself, it's the way the TVs run their apps. I don't trust the video processing at all, you can copy calibrated settings from HDMI/Component and they don't really apply properly. When you set the TV's picture settings to 0 color on any input, it removes all color saturation. Not so when you run an app like Hulu Plus or Netflix on a Panasonic plasma; that setting has no affect whatsoever. Neither of those services have a proper set of calibration patterns, so what limited control you do have over picture adjustment is just enough to make an image that looks vaguely right :p

I'd only trust an external BluRay player or some other device that runs Netflix. Problem is, when HDR rolls out on Netflix at first, the only devices that will decode it will be built-in to TVs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
The pattern sources are just RGB triplets so they won't change, what changes is the encoding for transport to the device. So you need Rec.2020 encoded video or an upscaler that will map the Rec.709 matrix to Rec.2020 (just like we used to do with SD->HD up conversion) so that the display knows to decode using the correct matrix to get the proper RGB triplet. Then you tune the display to reproduce whatever gamut was used to master the material that you are calibrating for, Rec.2020 or DCI-P3, whatever it turns out to be. I doubt there will be any Rec.2020 material for quite awhile (if ever).
I'm not quite sure I understand this. I hook up HCFR pattern generator to output RGB triplets. I am feeding them through HDMI into my HDR-enabled TV. Both have HDMI 2.0a. I set my TV for HDR mode (so it is expecting 4K 10-bit 4:2:2), don't I need to also configure my graphics card/laptop for HDR mode to also get 4K 10-bit 4:2:2? Is that what you mean by an 'upscaler'? Isn't that going to be supported by the graphics card (just like YCbCr versus RGB output)?

Daredevil was streamed by Netflix in HDR for a demo with LG last night, and I am expecting that there will be more content announcements over the coming week (between NAB in Los Vegas and Vizio's 2015 Launch a Event in NYC).

[EDIT: I just re-read the thread on the Netflix/LG Daredevil event last night and it looks it was streamed in 4K but not necessarily HDR (thread in OLED Forum). So my above statement was likely erroneous. Netfix is supposed to have filmed the new Season of Marco Polo in HDR, so that is likely to be the first HDR material they stream and perhaps we will hear more about that over the coming days...]
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The latest display technology hasn't even hit full DCI-P3 yet, it will be 3-5 years before we get full BT.2020 standard equipment. Also, DD is streaming in 4K but I am almost positive that it's not HDR.

People that attended the Samsung conference got HDR mastered material on thumbdrives of Exodus and Life of Pi; with Netflix stating they would start streaming HDR content later this year. I'd love to be wrong though so please do inform lol. I like the idea of having HDR content ready to go already.
My understanding is that the UHD Bluray spec has standardized on Rec.2020 but content for now will be limited to the DCI-P3 subset of those colors. So I think this means you will want to calibrate the primaries, secondaries,nand whitepoint to Rec.2020 as best you can (despite the fact that the TV will not be able to get all the way out there and despite the fact than no content is likely to make use of any colors outside of the DCI-P3 subset for some time).

The analogy I use is my recent calibration of my Vizio P70 - fully saturated primaries were off and could not be brought in line. The recommendation was to calibrate primaries and secondaries at 75%/75% and this worked well. Most of the colors typically used in content are accurate despite the fact that 100% fully-saturated red and green and blue have large dE errors of 5-7. The Rec.709 75% saturation rectangle is significantly smaller than the Rec.709 rectangle (100%) and so you can get very good results despite the fact that the primaries are not where you would like them (because those colors never/rarely show up on actual content).

I believe it will be the same for HDR - you will calibrate to Rec.2020 75%/75% paying special attention to the DCI-P3 subset of colors (perhaps as a special color checker or perhaps as a variant to the Rec.2020 75%/75% concept - namely DCI-P3 @ 75% or 100% saturation and 75% luminance.

Then there is also the whole 'increased brightness for highlights' / SMPTE gamma side of things, but I wanted to start by just understanding color...
 

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I'm not quite sure I understand this. I hook up HCFR pattern generator to output RGB triplets. I am feeding them through HDMI into my HDR-enabled TV. Both have HDMI 2.0a. I set my TV for HDR mode (so it is expecting 4K 10-bit 4:2:2), don't I need to also configure my graphics card/laptop for HDR mode to also get 4K 10-bit 4:2:2? Is that what you mean by an 'upscaler'? Isn't that going to be supported by the graphics card (just like YCbCr versus RGB output)?
HDR relates to dynamic range and how content is compressed to take advantage of higher bit depth display, it can be done for any color space as far as I understand.

RGB patterns from a PC can be used at any resolution to calibrate the display to any color space because no color space encoding is involved.
 

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It's not Netflix itself, it's the way the TVs run their apps. I don't trust the video processing at all, you can copy calibrated settings from HDMI/Component and they don't really apply properly. When you set the TV's picture settings to 0 color on any input, it removes all color saturation. Not so when you run an app like Hulu Plus or Netflix on a Panasonic plasma; that setting has no affect whatsoever. Neither of those services have a proper set of calibration patterns, so what limited control you do have over picture adjustment is just enough to make an image that looks vaguely right :p

I'd only trust an external BluRay player or some other device that runs Netflix. Problem is, when HDR rolls out on Netflix at first, the only devices that will decode it will be built-in to TVs.

It may be best to state the actual tv you own because I have two Panasonic tvs one plasma and a LCD at your statement is not the reality on my sets.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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It may be best to state the actual tv you own because I have two Panasonic tvs one plasma and a LCD at your statement is not the reality on my sets.


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I own 3 Panasonic Vieras (VT60, GT30, VT30), and they all work that way. Open the apps menu, set color to 0, launch any app and notice how it does nothing :-\ You're stuck looking at oversaturated app screens, once you start an actual video it respects the color setting, but color/tint still doesn't work the same way as it does over an HDMI source.

I just checked on my new LG EG9600, and it does the same thing. Only, instead of color not doing anything, absolutely no picture control of any sort works while running an app until you start playing video. Brightness, contrast, color temperature, it all has no affect. Fortunately, the Netflix menu's not freakishly discolored on the LG set, so I don't really care about that. But on my Panasonics, I'd give anything to be able to turn down the color saturation on the Netflix menu.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Kevin Miller did a calibration on a JS9500 during one of Samsung's unveiling events in NYC. So he might have tips on how to go about calibrating such a TV with HDR.
That input was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for when beginning this thread.

How do we get him to know about that we are here and asking these questions?
 

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The latest display technology hasn't even hit full DCI-P3 yet, it will be 3-5 years before we get full BT.2020 standard equipment.
I believe the content will start with REC.709 UHD 10-bit (with & without HDR support). and later it will use DCI, when there will be available consumer displays that can support this.

Currently there is not a single broadcast monitor I know exept the Dolby prototype that can be used for HDR grading.

The films are being mastered for theatrical release using DCI P3 colorspace which is 12 bit (or 10-bit for 2K at 48fps). Later using the DCI master they are converting using a LUT conversion or they re-grand them to REC.709 for the Blu-Ray release.

To have BT-2020 @ home, the original mastered film has to be @ BT-2020 also, since DCI has smaller gamut coverage from BT-2020.
 
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