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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, I've looked everywhere and can't find a simple answer (maybe there's none...).

I've bought a Samsung 55Q90T and when on HDR, I can choose in Color Space :
  • Auto
  • Native
  • Custom

Native is clearly oversaturated, so I went for Auto first.
But then I discovered that in the custom option, I could switch between DCI-P3 and BT.2020 color gamut.

As far as I understand movies are graded with a DCI-P3 color gamut. But what about games?

The difference between the 2 color gamut is staggering :
  • DCI-P3 : more vibrant but saturated colors, with a more greenish look
  • BT.2020 : less vibrant but more "realistic" colors, with a more purplish look
For example, the night sky in Red Dead Redemption 2 will look very different depending on the color gamut. Another example is the lava in God of War. I personally think I prefer the look with BT.2020, but wouldn't want to play games with colors not being the ones intended by the developers.

So, are games graded with a DCI-P3 or a BT.2020 color gamut? Does that matter in my choice?
 

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For Samsung TVs regarding movies, you're supposed to have the Color Space set to Native for HDR content, and custom for SDR content (I imagine the default "Custom" option is DCI-P3). Like you stated, Cinema/Video/Movies are color graded using the DCI-P3 color space. As far as I know, nothing as of yet is color graded using BT.2020. There isn't a panel that can achieve a color gamut that wide.

My gut is telling me the "correct" settings would be Custom, DCI-P3. I find it odd that the colors are over saturated for your games when set to "Native," especially if your settings are set to HDR. That being said, i think with video games, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's your world when you're playing, so I'd say go with whatever you think looks good.

It's also worth noting that the Samsung Q90T is able to achieve 89.13 % - DCI P3 xy and 93.18 % - DCI P3 uv, versus 67.24 % - Rec 2020 xy and 75.08 % - Rec 2020 uv (grabbed from RTINGS.com).

Also, if you're going to test different settings, give your eyes some time to adjust. Try one setting for a day or 2, then switch to the other setting for awhile and see which one you like more. If you constantly switch back and forth, the colors are always going to look drastically different.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
For Samsung TVs regarding movies, you're supposed to have the Color Space set to Native for HDR content, and custom for SDR content (I imagine the default "Custom" option is DCI-P3). Like you stated, Cinema/Video/Movies are color graded using the DCI-P3 color space. As far as I know, nothing as of yet is color graded using BT.2020. There isn't a panel that can achieve a color gamut that wide.

My gut is telling me the "correct" settings would be Custom, DCI-P3. I find it odd that the colors are over saturated for your games when set to "Native," especially if your settings are set to HDR. That being said, i think with video games, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's your world when you're playing, so I'd say go with whatever you think looks good.

It's also worth noting that the Samsung Q90T is able to achieve 89.13 % - DCI P3 xy and 93.18 % - DCI P3 uv, versus 67.24 % - Rec 2020 xy and 75.08 % - Rec 2020 uv (grabbed from RTINGS.com).

Also, if you're going to test different settings, give your eyes some time to adjust. Try one setting for a day or 2, then switch to the other setting for awhile and see which one you like more. If you constantly switch back and forth, the colors are always going to look drastically different.
Thanks for the very clear answer.

I'll stick with DCI-P3 for gaming too then.

As for Auto/Custom/Native, I'll try native in HDR again, and let it sink a bit, see how my eyes react. The difference between auto/custom and native in HDR is not as drastic as in SDR (where native is just unwatchable because of saturation!) but my first gut reaction was towards auto/custom. Maybe because I was coming from a very much less vibrant and bright HDR tv...
 

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Thanks for the very clear answer.

I'll stick with DCI-P3 for gaming too then.

As for Auto/Custom/Native, I'll try native in HDR again, and let it sink a bit, see how my eyes react. The difference between auto/custom and native in HDR is not as drastic as in SDR (where native is just unwatchable because of saturation!) but my first gut reaction was towards auto/custom. Maybe because I was coming from a very much less vibrant and bright HDR tv...
I'm also assuming you're in "Movie mode" picture setting... is that the mode you are using? "Movie Mode" is the most color accurate your TV will be out of the box. "Standard," "Natural," and especially "dynamic" will be overly saturated and too "cool" regarding white balance.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm also assuming you're in "Movie mode" picture setting... is that the mode you are using? "Movie Mode" is the most color accurate your TV will be out of the box. "Standard," "Natural," and especially "dynamic" will be overly saturated and too "cool" regarding white balance.
I'm playing with Game Mode on. I would love to try out Movie Mode while gaming, especially for some games like Red Dead Redemption 2, for the gain in picture quality and the movie-like look, but sadly there is an heavy inverse ghosting on any mode other than Game Mode. (see my message on this thread : 2020 Samsung Q90T Owners Thread - No Price Talk )
Since your last message, I've played in Native and it works extremely well with fantasy/colorful games (i.e. God of War or Spider-Man) but I'm still not sure about more "realistic" games (i.e. Far Cry 5 or Red Dead Redemption 2 - some green, especially the grass, can be too vivid it seems). I'll let the setting sink (and it will take some time since I'm not convinced about Contrast Enhancer on Low or High... the default being High on Game Mode) and see if it sticks for me.
 

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As far as I know, nothing as of yet is color graded using BT.2020. There isn't a panel that can achieve a color gamut that wide.
You may be interested to know, these are the movies Im aware of that report a bt2020 gamut.

The Matrix, Midsommar, Akira, Ghost in the Shell(1995), The House by the Cemetery, Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure, Flash Gordon, Red Heat, Three From Hell, and Ready Player One

While no consumer emissive panels can achieve bt2020 saturation there are dlp projectors that do(or get close), there were rptvs like the mitsubishi laservue and the upcoming samsung lsp9t that cover 99%+ of bt2020.

Heres the sim2 mico im using from 2010 which does about 90%
3041440
 

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Samsung RGB LSP9T ;-)


View attachment 3056251


So the films you mentioned above, really have BT2020 colors which are outside DCI P3 in them?

Regards,
Ekki
oh wow look at that thing.

I revised my statement, the only movie in that list that I can confirm has color within the bt2020 gamut is the matrix, the rest just simply only report bt2020 and not dci-p3. it looks like ghost in the shell(1995) does as well but the images aren't loading HDR heatmaps and torch mode UHDs - Page 17 - Blu-ray Forum there are other movies that report dci-p3 did show color within bt2020 as well and something about "overflow" was mentioned in regard to that occurence.

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will you be doing a review and teardown of the LSP9T? I'm very curious what the color cycling speed is as many people are reporting RBE but I don't see it on the Mico.

I'd like to thank you, your reviews of the Vivitek H9080, Sim2 Mico50 and PD FL32 were extremely thorough and useful and guided me to the Mico, which shows an incredible uptick in quality with 10bit UHD content via external tone mapping and a 3d lut(using madvr). I was able to hit 2,900:1(close to 15,000:1 dynamic) on the telephoto end of the lens with the brightness setting dropped a few points as when using dynamic dimming it still shows near black shades without crush.

You might find it interesting that the later variants, the m150 and Wolf Cinema DCL-200FD have a revised led modulation(not the dynamic contrast feature) which shows near black shades while leaving brightness at the default 50.

And due to the uniformity, high pixel fill, lack of misconvergence, and minimal chromatic abberation, combined with the dmd modulation performance, it's astoundingly detailed and accurate with 2160p 10bit content, even at 1080p.
20201113_014130.jpg
20201112_223852.jpg
 

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A first compact review will be published tomorrow ;-)

Overall the machine is very impressive, but the RGB laser does bring some drawbacks:

- Chromatic abberation --> no perfect convergence due to the laser spectrum-

- Laser Speckle, especially on CLR screens (Elite / Optoma)

- Low CRI as living room light (yes, this is an aspect, if you do not turn on ambient light during viewing). Be prepared to see your furniture, walls, paintings, carpets, even your own skin in new, amazing pop-art colors ;-)

- RBE is visible (240Hz, like the LG Vivo).

- Calibration of BT709 content is difficult


But hey, once you watch one of these OLED or QLED demo reels on that machine, most of the flaws above are forgotten due to its jaw dropping color intensity, paired with its huge brightness. Unfortunately, we have hardly any full BT2020 content yet :-(

Regards,
Ekki
 

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- Chromatic abberation --> no perfect convergence due to the laser spectrum-
Resolved by improved optics, correct? I had wondered if this would be any different with narrow dispersion lasers vs wide etendue leds but i suppose not.

- Laser Speckle, especially on CLR screens (Elite / Optoma)
I had also noticed that the LEDs interact less with the gain structure of ALR and gain boosted materials as well, I had guessed due to the uniformity and lack of speckle of the LEDs, but gain artifacts like sparkle are much less bothersome.

Have you heard of any higher luminance successor to the Phlatlight LEDs? The new Osram Ostars dont appear to be wide gamut focused, but if bright enough to hit 3000 calibrated lumens at dci-p3 then ample room to enable a second zonal dmd.

- Low CRI
I'm not familiar with this, would you mind elaborating?

- RBE is visible (240Hz, like the LG Vivo).
Do you know if this is due to pixel shifting or due to a limitation of the lasers?

- Calibration of BT709 content is difficult
That's strange doesn't it have 16bit 3d color mapping?
 

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I think your question flew right over his head.
hmm.... well lets think about this for a second.

I quite literally answered his question, revised my original statement, provided a measurement of color in content, and cited the source.

This is similar to Deerings comment on all dlp projectors needing to increase the brightness setting to show near black shades after i provided a study from carnegie mellon showing solid state light source modulation + a single dmds ability to show near black shades without increasing the brightness setting, confirmation from Wolf Cinema that the DCL-200FD uses the revised led modulation(again not a dynamic dimming contrast feature), as well as confirmation from tnaik4 with the sim2 m150 that brightness can be left at default.

Kris had ignored every question I asked him for the better part of a year and his first response to me is 100% inaccurate and irrelevant. And you ignored any post or question of mine unless to incorrectly contradict some very real and observable deficiency of lcos imagers. And then when i acquire the correct information on my own and attempt to share it in context its seen as an affront to the almighty perfretion of jvc dila.

You might remember, Ekki's last posts here almost 2 years ago were objective critical analysis of the JVC NX series which didnt go over well either.

Your lcos clique represents this forum not as science based but as brand biased. They dont "believe" in high contrast high adl, that ansi contrast is any indicator of any aspect of video performance, that misconvergence is an issue, that dmd modulation and motion performance are superior, objectively or subjectively, that pure color light sources are any different than uhp bulbs or laser phosphor. but they do believe bt2020 saturations are irrelevant, that measuring solid color patches is comparable to real time video performance, and that 500k:1 on/off applies to anything other than a 1 pixel measurement or full field black in the face of objective data.
3056596
 

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A first compact review will be published tomorrow ;-)

Overall the machine is very impressive, but the RGB laser does bring some drawbacks:

- Chromatic abberation --> no perfect convergence due to the laser spectrum-

- Laser Speckle, especially on CLR screens (Elite / Optoma)

- Low CRI as living room light (yes, this is an aspect, if you do not turn on ambient light during viewing). Be prepared to see your furniture, walls, paintings, carpets, even your own skin in new, amazing pop-art colors ;-)

- RBE is visible (240Hz, like the LG Vivo).

- Calibration of BT709 content is difficult


But hey, once you watch one of these OLED or QLED demo reels on that machine, most of the flaws above are forgotten due to its jaw dropping color intensity, paired with its huge brightness. Unfortunately, we have hardly any full BT2020 content yet :-(

Regards,
Ekki
where is the review posted? I don’t see anything new on your site?
Do you notice speckle on a white matte screen?
If a JVC’s X790’s black level was considered a 10, what would you say the Samsung‘s black level would be considered 1-10?
 

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where is the review posted? I don’t see anything new on your site?
Do you notice speckle on a white matte screen?
If a JVC’s X790’s black level was considered a 10, what would you say the Samsung‘s black level would be considered 1-10?
only in terms of measured on/off black level, if jvc is 10(30-50,000:1) and 1 is 500:1... sony is 8(15,000:1), 3chip dlp is 6(6,000:1), 1chip 0.95 dlp is 4(3,000:1), then maybe 2(~1,500:1)?

3057053
 

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where is the review posted? I don’t see anything new on your site?
Do you notice speckle on a white matte screen?
If a JVC’s X790’s black level was considered a 10, what would you say the Samsung‘s black level would be considered 1-10?
- First Review is up on our page. It is not a finisihed review, just sort of a preview with first impressions and measurements of the ootb settings.
I will not insert a link here, as last time I did it was unfortunately censored and I got a penalty.

- Speckle is less on a white screen but noticable from near.

- Depends on the ADL.. in higher ADLs a "12", because the Samsung is better here than JVC, in very low ADLs I guess a "5". Native contrast ist DLP typical around 2000:1.

Regards,
Ekki
 

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I’m referring to perceived black levels and with dynamic black engaged.
theres definitely a perceived contrast boost with this light engine.

Also dmds handle light differently than lcos imagers. Say if you put up a 1% adl white block on the right side of the image, with lcos the black level will measure higher the closer you get to the white block(+minor haloing/streaking), whereas the dmd will be virtually uniform throughout the image with no haloing/streaking. this is what the ansi contrast figure represents.

dynamic functions tricky because you still only have the native contrast to work with which could mean theres visible brightness changes and/or brightness compression/clipping. But its often very effective at de-milking low adl scenes. With this mico its very effective and looks like 15,000:1 native, typically only in low adl high contrast scenes are light sources compressed.


- First Review is up on our page. It is not a finisihed review, just sort of a preview with first impressions and measurements of the ootb settings.
thanks! thorough and you can read your excitement for the design in the review. look forward to reading more.

did you have to adjust brightness to show near black shades on a clipping pattern?

"after calibration to the D65 video standard of the color temperature, an impressive 2600 lumens remain"

oh whoa... kraine measured the chiq c8ut at 1500 d65. so thats amazing...

at 2600 lumens i think we're ready for dual dmd zonal, and with a high quality lens to avoid chromatic aberration... just waiting on the native 2160p 0.65" dmds now
 

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- First Review is up on our page. It is not a finisihed review, just sort of a preview with first impressions and measurements of the ootb settings.
I will not insert a link here, as last time I did it was unfortunately censored and I got a penalty.

- Speckle is less on a white screen but noticable from near.

- Depends on the ADL.. in higher ADLs a "12", because the Samsung is better here than JVC, in very low ADLs I guess a "5". Native contrast ist DLP typical around 2000:1.

Regards,
Ekki
Great review. So it appears dynamic black isn’t being used at all?
 

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They dont "believe" in high contrast high adl,
- Depends on the ADL.. in higher ADLs a "12", because the Samsung is better here than JVC, in very low ADLs I guess a "5". Native contrast ist DLP typical around 2000:1.

Regards,
Ekki
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Thanks for your posts, gentleman. This is a point that is very important. That chart above plainly shows that JVC's LCos begins to take a dive above 2% ADL. The Christie Ultimate aside for now for obvious reasons, the other projectors, besides the LSP9T, in the chart above begin to outperform the JVC RS3000 at above 2% ADL and into higher ADL.

Now that doesn't mean as a practical matter that the Sony's and the Sim 2's contrast outperforms the RS3000's for 98% of the ADL spectrum. And that's because a lot of content falls at or below 20% ADL. Still, the LSP9T's contrast in that chart begins to surpass the JVC's at around 9%, so even in ADL content topped at 20%, you should be able to see a difference in the higher ADL range. On the other hand for content scenes at or below .05%, the JVC will have a huge advantage over the others save for the Christie.
 
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