[Timpanogos]

I have just started to play with HDTV on my Plus UP-1100. It is being fed by the HiPix card from my HTPC and I used an AccessDTV card for a few weeks before that. Same HDTV problem on both: I get a small horizontal line about 2/3 of the way up on the screen when the 16:9 projector output is chosen. When the regular 4:3 projector format is used, the horizontal "line" appears 1/3 of the way up the screen. Static or low motion HDTV images are beautiful in either screen formats with NO line. It is only on certain speed pans that the horizontal "line" (I think that it can best be described as "tearing") appears. It disappears when the motion stops.


Are you guys getting the same panning/motion artifact with HDTV feeds that I am getting? I have a VERY early Plus UP-1100 (#19900804)(have enjoyed it with my HTPC for 25 months now) and may have a very early version of the firmware. I need to decide whether to try a firmware upgrade to solve the HDTV problem or move to another, more HDTV capable projector. Comments would be appreciated!

 

[Jeff J]

unfortunately, I think that I am seeing the same thing. I am using a DTC-100 that I just got late last week. I have played around with re-trace timings on the DTC and the clock phase and frequency on the UP without success in eliminating the line.


I have noticed this on both HD programming that the DTC outputs as 1080i and on SD programming that is output as 540p - so I'm not sure if this is just HD specific. How does the HiPix output SD stuff and do you also see the line there?


I was also hoping that this could be cable related. I am only using the generic VGA cable that was included with the projector.


Hopefully there is an easy solution here...

jeff

 

[Gary P. Gibbs]

Do you see the same thing with 720p?




------------------

Gary


STOP DVI/HDCP!

DVI/HDCP! ~= HD-DIVX!!!

DO NOT SUPPORT JVC or anyone else who supports this!

 

[Timpanogos]

When fed 720p by the HiPix, I do not have the tearing (line) in the picture, but the picture is "softened" compared to 1080i. It must be artifacts from the 1080i to 720p conversion. There is also "jogging" in pans at 720p (like a lost frame here and there), campared to the silky smooth 1080i pans (but alas, with the tearing line).


Is ANYONE with the Plus UP-1100 or NEC clone, the LT-100 getting artifact-less HDTV performance from your machines at 1080i?

 

[Gary P. Gibbs]

I have been using my LT100 with a Dish 6000 unit via RGB for several months without tearing. I have had the unit set at 720p because the LT100 seemed to have the best scaling at this input. I will try 1080i over the next few days and see if I can notice tearing.




------------------

Gary


STOP DVI/HDCP!

DVI/HDCP! ~= HD-DIVX!!!

DO NOT SUPPORT JVC or anyone else who supports this!

 

[Jeff J]

tim,

is the line the same intensity when you are NOT using wide mode?


With all of fast camera pans in NYPD last night, the line was especially noticeable when in wide mode, however, I watched about 10 min back and forth between wide and normal and was not able to pick it up at all when in normal.


gary,

sort of wish that I had 720p capability.

-jeff

 

[Timpanogos]

The line 2/3 of the way up the screen you see in 16:9 mode goes away when in 4:3 mode... but there is another LESS NOTICABLE line 1/3 of the way up the screen when in "normal" 4:3 mode and you feed it 1080i. Look closely and you will see it (perhaps).


The Dish 6000 HDTV receiver must scale the 1080i better when outputting 720p than the HiPix does. As I said, I get no tearing when the Plus is being fed 720p, but the picture is noticably softer than when in crystal clear 1080i mode(but then, alas, I get the tearing).


If I can pin down a Plus owner who gets no tearing at 1080i, then a firmware upgrade might solve my problem.

 

[Hans_Moleman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timpanogos: The line 2/3 of the way up the screen you see in 16:9 mode goes away when in 4:3 mode... but there is another LESS NOTICABLE line 1/3 of the way up the screen when in "normal" 4:3 mode and you feed it 1080i. Look closely and you will see it (perhaps).

Your description is dang near identical to my experience. You can read all about it here: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Archives...10-000776.html


The net result is that I was able to make a compromise to get rid of the tearing in 4:3 mode, but didn't find an acceptable way to cure the problem in 16:9 mode with HD.


There are a couple of people in that thread that did not see the problem on their projector. The question remains whether this in an LT100 vs UP1100 issue or a firmware update issue. I'd asked several times in other threads for help determining the firmware revision or how to access possible hidden service menus with no luck so I'd be interested if you can learn anything else about this problem.


Cheers,

Matt

 

[Timpanogos]

Thanks for the reply... I called Plus several weeks ago and asked them about HDTV on the UP-1100 and the tech said that it wasn't an HDTV capable unit. He went away to ask another tech and this tech told him that it can do HDTV, but only in the 4:3 format mode. This may be why everything looks good HDTV wise on the unit if the HDTV receiver can letterbox the HDTV feed for you and you can use 4:3 at the projector end (but wasting resolution), rather than having to use the 16:9 projector setting (with the tearing problem).


Unfortunately, both the AccessDTV and HiPix cards will only output the HDTV letterbox for 4:3 displays in the 480p mode... They cannot do it in the 1080i and 720p modes.


After 25 months of stellar DVD performance, it may be time to upgrade the old DLP unit. The Plus UP-1100 was my second DLP (I had a Davis model 650 for a year before that). Of course, a firmware upgrade would be a relatively cheap HDTV fix if it indeed works, and would buy me more time to wait for more of the 16:9 format DLP's to come out and then drop in price.


My projector manual lists the NEC "Accublend" tradename for the scaling engine in the Plus machine. My view is that the machines are very close to each other.


Thanks Hans! I will try the vertical position adjustment to try and get rid of the 4:3 HDTV "line" and if it does, perhaps this will tide me over projector-wise for a while.


[This message has been edited by Timpanogos (edited 08-15-2001).]

 

[ghibliss]

I have seen the problem that you are describing at a friends home. He is the service mgr. for Plus and after replacing everything in the projector it turned out that the noise (line)is coming from the motherboard. The problem is definitely not in the software. Other types of noise in the UP1100 can be attributed to the different versions of the power supplies that have been used (I think they have used at least five different models).


Plus has not trouble shot this problem down to a component level and you can be certain that on a discontinued model that they will not be doing so anytime soon. The motherboard is extremely expensive to replace.

 

[Hans_Moleman]

Quote:

Originally posted by ghibliss: ...after replacing everything in the projector it turned out that the noise (line)is coming from the motherboard. The problem is definitely not in the software.

Can you elaborate any further? The way the image tear behaves doesn't seem consistent with a noise problem. The image above the tear point is shifted with respect to the image below it which indicates to me that the projector is showing me parts from 2 different frames/fields. That would seem to point to a memory buffer problem with the internal scaler. In which case, the only possible solutions would be an external scaler or the slim possibility that Plus could manipulate the image buffering either through a hardware or firmware change to the projector.


In any event, I guess it is unlikely Plus would do anything about it regardless of whether it is firmware or hardware so I guess I just have to live with it the way it is.


Cheers,

Matt


[This message has been edited by Hans_Moleman (edited 08-16-2001).]

 

[Timpanogos]

Hans, a minor adjustment to the vertical positioning control on the projector did the trick for me. The tearing while in 4:3 mode is now gone. I can live with the results. Again, thanks! The 1080i looks great and the pans are smooth as silk at that resolution. Now all I need is an HDTV STB that can output the HDTV in letterbox at 1080i for the projector when it is in its 4:3 mode.


I can live without the letterbox output, at least for a while, because the 4:3 output is so spectacular...

 

[packlet]

i have to concur with timpanogos: try adjusting the vertical position of the image. this cleaned up most of the tearing in widescreen mode when watching DTC-100.

 

[Timpanogos]

I had a chance to play around with the 1080i feeds from the HiPix with the UP-1100 set on the 16:9 aspect ratio at the projector and as packlet said, adjusting the vertical position setting worked its magic. In my case, I had all projector settings at their default originally when I was having the problem and to solve it, just moved the vertical position setting to the right one click, observed the picture, one click right, observed the picture, etc., until the tearing went away. FABULOUS! Hans, if it weren't for the fact that I am a bald, 49 year old guy with a ponch, I would have your babies!


Those with NEC LT-100 or Plus UP-1100 projectors that are having problems with HDTV, adjust your vertical position settings!!!! It will dial the picture right in!!!!

 

[Gary P. Gibbs]

Great News!




------------------

Gary


STOP DVI/HDCP!

DVI/HDCP! ~= HD-DIVX!!!

DO NOT SUPPORT JVC or anyone else who supports this!

 

[Hans_Moleman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timpanogos: I had a chance to play around with the 1080i feeds from the HiPix with the UP-1100 set on the 16:9 aspect ratio at the projector and as packlet said, adjusting the vertical position setting worked its magic.

I'm glad that worked out for you. For whatever reason when I tried the vertical adjustment with my UP1100 set to wide mode, I had a whole lot of the image scrolled off the top of the screen before it finally got rid of the tearing. It amounted to about half of the banner on my DTC100 if my memory isn't failing me.


And, uh, thanks I think. No babies necessary, just send extra bulbs. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


Cheers,

Matt

 

[Timpanogos]

Doh! Okay guys, what current single chip DLP's are known to be great with both HDTV and DVD's? Thanks for the insight, ghibliss. It is appreciated.