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Since I am learning more about HDTV and its status in the United States each day, I am quite curious on its status outside the country. How is HDTV doing in places like Europe, Australia, or Japan?
 

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In Europe besides two satellite 1080i channels high definition is basically non-existent. There is no DVB standard for high definition and considering that they are currently switching to digital SD it would be dificult for many of the European countries to immediately switch to HD. As such it will take at least 5 to 10 years for HD to really start appearing in Europe.


Japan would be considered just behind the US in HD and have both a broadcast and satellite standard. The broadcast standard is a little better than either ATSC or DVB and is called ISDB-T. This standard is capable of 18 Mbps and is better than even DVB in multipath reception. They also have ISDB-S which is their satellite standard at 24 Mbps. In Japan cable is somewhat rare so satellite is the main service provider.


South Korea uses the ATSC standard and besides that I know little of how popular it is there. I do know that they are close to the US in HD broadcasting coverage and that they plan to have nationwide coverage by next year. They also made ATSC's DASE standard for interactive DTV which I believe they currently use.


Australia is using 1080i as a format and though years ahead of Europe and most of the world in HD it would probably be considered 4th place in HD behind the US, Japan, and South Korea.


The ATSC Forum has a lot of information on the ATSC standard and the countries that use it.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
In Europe besides two satellite 1080i channels high definition is basically non-existent. There is no DVB standard for high definition and considering that they are currently switching to digital SD it would be dificult for many of the European countries to immediately switch to HD. As such it will take at least 5 to 10 years for HD to really start appearing in Europe.


Japan would be considered just behind the US in HD and have both a broadcast and satellite standard. The broadcast standard is a little better than either ATSC or DVB and is called ISDB-T. This standard is capable of 18 Mbps and is better than even DVB in multipath reception. They also have ISDB-S which is their satellite standard at 24 Mbps. In Japan cable is somewhat rare so satellite is the main service provider.


South Korea uses the ATSC standard and besides that I know little of how popular it is there. I do know that they are close to the US in HD broadcasting coverage and that they plan to have nationwide coverage by next year. They also made ATSC's DASE standard for interactive DTV which I believe they currently use.


Australia is using 1080i as a format and though years ahead of Europe and most of the world in HD it would probably be considered 4th place in HD behind the US, Japan, and South Korea.


The ATSC Forum has a lot of information on the ATSC standard and the countries that use it.
There is DVB HD standard. That is what is used in Australia. Picture resolutions really have no baring on a standard. DVB or ATSC can carry the same data. They just differ, how it is delivered.


I am not sure how you came to conclusion that ISDB-T is better than ATSC 8VSB or DVB-T. First of all it is based on COFDM just like DVB. Is it better than DVB?. I do not know, but they basically lowered data payload to achieve better multipath resistance. Is it better than 8VSB, well that is just another discussion COFDM vs 8VSB, which I am not going to get into.


Satellite data rate in ISDB-S or ATSC-S or DVB-S can be upto 45Mbps and they all are very similar. In Japan they typically use 20Mbps for satellite, but that is changing as they launch more channels and are running out of space, just like here.


South Korea uses ATSC for OTA. There is no HD on satellite there yet. The same in Australia where they only have OTA HD and they use 50Hz which is little inferior to 60Hz.
 

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In Europe besides two satellite 1080i channels high definition is basically non-existent. There is no DVB standard for high definition and considering that they are currently switching to digital SD it would be dificult for many of the European countries to immediately switch to HD. As such it will take at least 5 to 10 years for HD to really start appearing in Europe.
I think you may be missing part of the point of DVB. There is a number of working groups in DVB, looking at extensions of the standard. The concept is modular, so that DVB-S, DVB-T and DVB-C share most of the standard, with tuning/demodulation/error correction differentiated. The working group on AVC is developing the technical part of advanced compression techniques. The equivalent Commercial Module is looking at demand and deployment prospects. These are only two of many commercial/technical module pairings looking at different development strategies.


You are probably right about the time-frame, though. It is unlikely that Europe will use MPEG-2 for HDTV and the advanced codecs (VC-1, MPEG-4 AVC and others) are only just becoming stable and performing enough. Studio equipment is available in SD, but needs to be able to encode into the advanced codec in HD realtime. This will probably happen in 2005.
 

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There is DVB HD standard. That is what is used in Australia. Picture resolutions really have no baring on a standard. DVB or ATSC can carry the same data. They just differ, how it is delivered.
Australia uses the ATSC standard with DVB transmission. Without standards you can't successfully make a format and though DVB can carry SD it has no standards for HD. Europeans are only now studying the issue of an HD standard for DVB and it may be years before a HD DVB standard is created.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Australia uses the ATSC standard with DVB transmission. Without standards you can't successfully make a format and though DVB can carry SD it has no standards for HD. Europeans are only now studying the issue of an HD standard for DVB and it may be years before a HD DVB standard is created.
No they do not. Australia uses DVB period. I do not think you understand what is ATSC and DVB standard. Picture resolutions like 1080i50/60Hz and 720p50/60 are universal and are part of either standard. Though Australia uses 1080i50Hz or 576p50 which is ED. They do not as of now use 720p.


Here is website about DTV in Australia. You can find out for yourself.
http://www.dba.org.au/


I forgot to mention that Dish network in US uses DVB-S standard.
 

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Originally posted by thegeby
I think you may be missing part of the point of DVB. There is a number of working groups in DVB, looking at extensions of the standard. The concept is modular, so that DVB-S, DVB-T and DVB-C share most of the standard, with tuning/demodulation/error correction differentiated. The working group on AVC is developing the technical part of advanced compression techniques. The equivalent Commercial Module is looking at demand and deployment prospects. These are only two of many commercial/technical module pairings looking at different development strategies.


You are probably right about the time-frame, though. It is unlikely that Europe will use MPEG-2 for HDTV and the advanced codecs (VC-1, MPEG-4 AVC and others) are only just becoming stable and performing enough. Studio equipment is available in SD, but needs to be able to encode into the advanced codec in HD realtime. This will probably happen in 2005.
Euro1080i is using MPEG2 for HD right now. You will probably get some MPEG4 and VC-1 also. In US satellite providers will be switching to better codecs too. As a matter of fact ATSC already adopted VC-1 as an extra codec.
 

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No they do not. Australia uses DVB period. I do not think you understand what is ATSC and DVB standard. Picture resolutions like 1080i50/60Hz and 720p50/60 are universal and are part of either standard. Though Australia uses 1080i50Hz or 576p50 which is ED. They do not as of now use 720p.
The ATSC and DVB standards are more than just the transmission standard but are also specify how the data is sent. Since the DVB standard had no specification for carrying HD I heard that Australia used some elements of ATSC for how the data would be sent. There is a big difference in DVB transmission and the DVB standard and currently Australia does not really use the DVB standard. They can broadcast at 1080i with Dolby Digital audio which no other DVB receiver outside Australia could receive. This is why a HD DVB standard will have to be made since it isn't a minor modifaction to change from a SD decoder to a HD decoder.


Quote:
As a matter of fact ATSC already adopted VC-1 as an extra codec.
Only for supplemental material. It can't be used in the main video stream and can only be used in E-VSB (Enhanced VSB) mode. Also the E-VSB mode can never exceed the resolution of the main video stream and is limited to 3 Mbps during premium programming hours. This information can be found on page 100 of the ATSC A/53 Revision C standard .
 

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Quote:
The ATSC and DVB standards are more than just the transmission standard but are also specify how the data is sent. Since the DVB standard had no specification for carrying HD I heard that Australia used some elements of ATSC for how the data would be sent. There is a big difference in DVB transmission and the DVB standard and currently Australia does not really use the DVB standard. They can broadcast at 1080i with Dolby Digital audio which no other DVB receiver outside Australia could receive.
Sorry, No again...

Although DVB has MPEG-2 audio as the main audio implementation, you can easily use AC-3 within the standard. Several European satellite channels use AC-3 for 5.1. movies as the Dolby amplifier equipment is used here on DVDs. It is very common to have both codecs implemented in the standard receiver hardware chip, although it would be marginally cheaper to only implement MPEG-2. My satellite receiver has no problem with either.


I really recommend AVS members to take a gander at the DVB website. The concept is entirely different from the ATSC imposition of specific technology and in my view much more future proof. TV over mobile phones? TV over IP? Mobile handheld TV? They are working on all of it. Compared to the difficulties the US has to combine HD cable and HD OTA in a single receiver, it does seem more efficient.
 

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Originally posted by thegeby
Sorry, No again...

Although DVB has MPEG-2 audio as the main audio implementation, you can easily use AC-3 within the standard. Several European satellite channels use AC-3 for 5.1. movies as the Dolby amplifier equipment is used here on DVDs. It is very common to have both codecs implemented in the standard receiver hardware chip, although it would be marginally cheaper to only implement MPEG-2. My satellite receiver has no problem with either.


I really recommend AVS members to take a gander at the DVB website. The concept is entirely different from the ATSC imposition of specific technology and in my view much more future proof. TV over mobile phones? TV over IP? Mobile handheld TV? They are working on all of it. Compared to the difficulties the US has to combine HD cable and HD OTA in a single receiver, it does seem more efficient.
ATSC works on as many things as DVB. There is nothing more future proof about DVB as there is about ATSC. I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. I already mentioned that in US Dish Network uses DVB-S and most satellite uses DVB-S for FTA. ATSC-S and DVB-S standards are very similar and can be recived by either type receiver.


You lost me completely about combining HD cable and HD OTA. There is absolutely no problem. Where did you get that information?. Besides, there is no DVB receiver that receives digital cable and OTA in the same box, not to mention HD. Is there?. I have never seen one. I only saw seperate boxes or ones that combine DVB-S and DVB-T but not DVB-C.


US digital cable follows so called Open cable standard that has some things from DVB-C and ATSC but is much more advanced than DVB-C. Also Digicipher2 and Powervue encryptions have not been cracked compared to anything on cable in Europe.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
The ATSC and DVB standards are more than just the transmission standard but are also specify how the data is sent. Since the DVB standard had no specification for carrying HD I heard that Australia used some elements of ATSC for how the data would be sent. There is a big difference in DVB transmission and the DVB standard and currently Australia does not really use the DVB standard. They can broadcast at 1080i with Dolby Digital audio which no other DVB receiver outside Australia could receive. This is why a HD DVB standard will have to be made since it isn't a minor modifaction to change from a SD decoder to a HD decoder.



Only for supplemental material. It can't be used in the main video stream and can only be used in E-VSB (Enhanced VSB) mode. Also the E-VSB mode can never exceed the resolution of the main video stream and is limited to 3 Mbps during premium programming hours. This information can be found on page 100 of the ATSC A/53 Revision C standard .
Once again, read the info I provided about Australian DTV. They use DVB and not ATSC. As a matter of fact DVB supports DD and even DTS. Yes they were added later but they are there. As a matter of fact Dish Network was the first company using DVB-S to send DD audio. They forced DVB to add DD to the standard around 1998. What DVB did for Australia is to incorporate HD resolutions in the spec.


Also going from SD to HD decoder is not minor. It is much more complicated than you think. Now, it is not a problem though as HD elementary streams are identical for ATSC and DVB.


I only mentioned VC-1 adopted by ATSC to show that DVB is not the only one working on new codecs and improvements. DVB supporters think that ATSC stands in place and does nothing.


I just want to make sure that people know that over 50% of DVB consortium members are US companies. Also OFDM technology on which DVB-T is based was invented by Bell Labs in US. So no matter how you look at it, it is not entirely European and they have to pay Bell Labs for using OFDM.


What is different in US compared to Europe, is that besides OTA DTV companies can pick and use the best technology available. For example DVB-H will be used in US also. Europeans on the other hand, always use anything DVB no matter if it is better or worse.


The best example is GSM for cellular phones. It is the only technology used in Europe which is based on TDMA. In US we have GSM , but also CDMA which is a better technology. Only now they are working on GSM2 which may approach quality of CDMA.
 

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hi,


do anyone of you do anything know about european HDTV? If i follow this discussion my guess is no.


Fact 1:

Currently in Europe there is not really set a Standard, its more like the big Satellite Groups saying: You can use what you want, we will transmit 720p and 1080i. The only thing which is set now is that it must be 50 Hz. There will be no settings for the codec, cause the different countries all over Europe prefer all another codec. UK is into mpeg4 maybe, Germany currently run mpeg2 but they testing mpeg4 transmissions and as wild as it sounds Microsoft wmv also as Outsider. So, the different countries do and will do different codecs.

The Video Bitrate is more than US HDTV do. Currently the airing Programes have like 22/23 mbit/s just Video Signal, so that you have 27 mbit/s in total with ac3 5.1.



Fact 2:

Currently there are really much HDTV Transmission going on. Europe really fit into the market right now. The first european HDTV only Channel HD1 has started to air HDNet Conetent (they have a contract with HDNet USA) and as said above VOOM Content. For an example they aired Bikini Destination on that Channel, free to air without paying. At the end of this year the channel will turn in a half free to air and half Pay TV Channel. The Channel will split into two Channels. The first will be encrypted and the second for free. The difference between both will be that the encrypted one will have full backup from HDNet USA and the second one will just air some pieces out of the first to get Costumers.


Also free to air is currently the Channel of the ASTRA Satellite Provider. The Channel is called ASTRA HD. They running some HD things like a Docu about Cars and some Test Loops from Pioneer and Panasonic.


Just yesterday the german Channel ProSieben owned by Haim Saban showed the BBC Kids Docu Pride in SD and HDTV in Primetime. That was the first european simulcast Broadcast.


The french Pay TV Provider TPS will start HDTV January 2005.


The german Pay TV Provider PREMIERE will start in November 2005 with HDTV. They will roll out 3 Channel plus an PPV Channel in HDTV.


Sky UK will start HDTV in 2006 or earlier with 7 Channels.



DouMan
 

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Quote:
Also going from SD to HD decoder is not minor. It is much more complicated than you think. Now, it is not a problem though as HD elementary streams are identical for ATSC and DVB.
CKNA, if you look at my sentence I used the word "isn't". I am happy to see that you agree with me on that but there is no standard for HD elementary streams in the DVB standard. In fact its quite possible that HD DVB will skip to a more advanced video codec and not even use MPEG-2 for HD. It should be easy for Europe to make a better HD OTA standard considering that ATSC's video and audio codecs were made over 10 years ago.


Quote:
The Video Bitrate is more than US HDTV do. Currently the airing Programes have like 22/23 mbit/s just Video Signal, so that you have 27 mbit/s in total with ac3 5.1.
In the UK the bit rate is around 13 Mbps to improve reception and for OTA broadcasting DVB's maximum is around 18 Mbps. Also AC3 has a maximum bit rate of 640 Kbps (576 Kbps maximum on ATSC) with 448 Kbps being the commonly used bit rate. ATSC has a maximum bit rate of 19.8 Mbps with a video bit rate of up to 19.4 Mbps with a 448 Kbps audio bit stream.


Quote:
Sky UK will start HDTV in 2006 or earlier with 7 Channels.
I've heard about that and it will be interesting to see if they can do it. Currently the most HD channels you can get in the US is around 20 excluding the special HD channels on VOOM.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
In Europe besides two satellite 1080i channels high definition is basically non-existent. There is no DVB standard for high definition and considering that they are currently switching to digital SD it would be dificult for many of the European countries to immediately switch to HD. As such it will take at least 5 to 10 years for HD to really start appearing in Europe.
hi,


sorry but your point here is totally wrong, without talking about the minority of channels cause thats right. In Europe its a little bit different to America. In America you have the USA and Canada as the two big countries in the North. Thats just two countries to get all together. In Europe you have like 12 countries right now which are trying to get into HDTV, with the main countries France, Germany and the UK. These three countries are currently not far away from an ongoing HDTV Program. The UK could then the european Leader cause the language support is much more easier than to the rest of Europe and Sky leads the SD market right now. But the UK is kinda extra, not really included to the rest cause their Channels are on another Satellite which noone in Europe use also, called ASTRA 2. Europeans use the ASTRA 1 at all. To come to an comment in your last posting, there is no guess if the UK will do that, they will just do. Normally when you give out a PR you don`t call it back unless you having money Problems. ;)



What i trying to say is that the UK are currently out of action cause they using another Satellite. All the action are currently on the first Satellite. They will sweap in when Sky starts HDTV.


Europe doing SD since 6 years now, so what you talking about? Not without analog Transmissions beisides, but they do.


For the last word, the EBU currently testing things and giving suggestions about how to do HDTV. They saying 720p is more effectiv for Europe.


The Formula 1 will in HDTV by 2006 i guess. In a PR of the german Pay TV Provider PREMIERE you can read: "Our main Events on Sport HD in 2006 will be the Formula One, Soccer World Cup 2006 and the Olympics. We will bring all these Events 2006 in HDTV."




DougMan
 

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I just bring this topic up for a new european alert:



Unterföhring/Betzdorf, 22nd November 2004




"The Nibelungen" in High Definition on Sat.1 Television HDTV/SDTV Simulcast of the Sat 1 TV Event of the Year


ProSiebenSat.1 Produktion and SES ASTRA will simultaneously broadcast in HD and SD via ASTRA 19.2° East on the 29th and 30th of November


Just six weeks after the first simultaneous broadcast in advertising financed German Free-TV of high-resolution HDTV (High Definition Television) in parallel with conventional digital standard resolution, ProSiebenSat.1 Produktion and SES ASTRA have arranged yet another HDTV/SDTV Simulcast. On 29th and 30th November, "Die Nibelungen - Der Fluch des Drachen" [The Nibelungen - The Curse of the Dragon], the "TV Event of the Year" on Sat.1, can also be received via ASTRA 19.2° East in the new, high-resolution HDTV standard.


Sat.1 viewers with suitable receiving equipment can experience this epic two-part movie about Siegfried, Brunhild and Princess Kriemhild in crystal-clear picture quality. The visual experience will be completed by Dolby Digital 5.1 sound, providing viewers with true cinema quality in the living room. Technically speaking, the broadcast will be simulcast in parallel to the SD signal, the film being played out in HDCAM SR (1080i/50 Hz) and delivered to an MPEG-2 HD encoder with a data rate of some 1.4 gigabits/s. The DPC (Digital Playout Center) based in Unterföhring, Germany, is responsible for the re-multiplexing, the modulation and uplink of the HD signal and ensures that the signal is DVB-conform. The symbol rate is 22 MS/s. The HD broadcast of "Die Nibelungen - Der Fluch des Drachen" can be received via ASTRA Transponder No. 31 on frequency 11.671 GHz.





For more go to www.astra-ses.com



Doug
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DougMan


The Formula 1 will in HDTV by 2006 i guess. In a PR of the german Pay TV Provider PREMIERE you can read: "Our main Events on Sport HD in 2006 will be the Formula One, Soccer World Cup 2006 and the Olympics. We will bring all these Events 2006 in HDTV."




DougMan
So in theory, if Premiere broadcasts Formula One in HD, does that mean that the HD broadcast would be available to the US on HDNet if they chose to show it?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul

In the UK the bit rate is around 13 Mbps to improve reception and for OTA broadcasting DVB's maximum is around 18 Mbps. Also AC3 has a maximum bit rate of 640 Kbps (576 Kbps maximum on ATSC) with 448 Kbps being the commonly used bit rate. ATSC has a maximum bit rate of 19.8 Mbps with a video bit rate of up to 19.4 Mbps with a 448 Kbps audio bit stream.

[/b]
Hi there Richard - your figures are incorrect for DVB-T (the terrestrial implementation of the DVB standard) in the UK.


The UK runs with 6 DVB-T multiplexes (running the 2k standard not the 8k one) nationwide - i.e. almost everywhere gets 6 different muxes. A mux is roughly the same as a single ATSC RF channel.


4 of the UK muxes are running using 16QAM (The two BBC muxes and the two Crown Castle ones) - these together make up the Freeview consortium. All the video and audio content on these muxes is free-to-air.


2 of the UK muxes are running using 64QAM (The ITV/C4 mux and the SDN/Five mux) These 2 muxes aren't technically part of Freeview, and carry a couple of Pay-TV streams, but most of their content is free-to-air.


The 16QAM muxes deliver 18Mbs each, the 64QAM muxes deliver 24Mbs each. Both significantly higher than the 13 Mbs you mention (not sure where that figure came from) - it may be the equivalent data that would be carried in a 6MHz System M width channel? (The UK uses System I 8MHz channel spacing)


Initially (when DVB-T launched in the UK in 1998) all 6 muxes ran 64QAM - so all 6 delivered 24Mbs each. However 3 of the muxes were universally pay-TV and this failed commercially. The Freeview consortium applied, and were awarded the 3 failed-pay TV slots, and decided to move them, as well as the original BBC mux to 16QAM to improve reception and coverage areas. They reduced the number of services carried - so bit rate didn't drop.


The standard allocation is 4 video services in 18Mbs (the Beeb run a combination of statmux and CBR services in some areas on some muxes) or 6 in 24Mbs - though ITV are about to squeeze 4 services into their 12Mbs half of the ITV/C4 transponder.


The TV audio standard is 256k or 192k MPEG layer II - stereo only.


Additionally a large number of digital radio services are also carried on the DVB-T muxes (quite a neat feature) and they run at between 192k discrete stereo and 64k mono AIUI - with 128k and 160k joint stereo services also being used.


There is no AC3/DD5.1 audio currently carried on any UK DVB-T service - though Sky do carry DD5.1 audio on their DVB-S satellite service.


The DVB-T system in the UK is proving increasingly popular - the set top boxes are the fastest adopted technological product in consumer electronics history over here I believe - beating DVD in sales. Since Freeview launched about 2 years ago - with a simple non-subscription message and a low cost box (cheapest ones are now GBP40) - they have sold millions - it is due to overtake digital satellite as the most popular digital platform in the UK at current take-up rates.
 
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