AVS Forum banner

501 - 520 of 718 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Okay, I am back here with hopefully my last attempt at getting clarification.


Seeing as I do not have over $1,000 to spend, the LC32GP1U is out the question.


That leaves me with just the Samsung one currently, specifically the LNT2642H.


Now, how bad is the lag on that TV? I mean, I don't plan on playing nothing like Guitar Hero on it, but how bad would it be for me, if say, I played Street Fighter 3 on it in 480i?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,801 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaVader /forum/post/12862599


I'm a bit new to HDTV technical know-how, so please excuse my naivete.


I looked over the FAQ and it says games lag when upscaling. Alright, fair enough. However, upscaling doesn't have to take place when the game console outputs at the native resolution of the screen. Am I correct so far?


So here's the deal: I have an xbox 360 and a 50" SXRD (Lccos, not LCD or whatever they use these days), and I output the 360 at 1080i. Nonetheless, games undoubtably lag... I play Guitar Hero and Rock Band, and always have to adjust for lag in the options, but even then, it is a bit unplayable on more difficult songs that I can otherwise do fine on my LCD monitor.


So here's my confusion: the xbox 360 can match the res of the screen, why am I still lagging? Is there more to HDTV lag than merely upscaling?


Thanks for any help.

Your TV is 1080p correct? That means by sending it 1080i you are first interlacing a progressive image at the box and then de-interlacing it at the TV. Interlacing and de-interlacing are both far more time consuming and lag causing problems than scaling is (and introduce video artifacts). I assume you're sending the TV 1080i because you're hooked up over component and your TVs component input won't accept 1080p. If this is the case you should find out if your TV will accept 1080p over VGA and if it will then buy a VGA cable for your 360. If it won't then try sending the TV 720p, all you'll be doing is letting the TV do the scaling instead of the box and if your TV has a good scaler it should look pretty much the same minus all the time is takes to interlace and de-interlace the signal.


The best solution would be to just use HDMI, however I assume your box doesn't have an HDMI out. If it does hit up Monoprice, buy a cheap HDMI cable, send your TV 1080p, and enjoy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
is there any articles showing a list of how much each LCD tv lags by?

i bought an LG 32LC7D and i've noticed the lag, and wondering if other lcd tv's handle lag about the same (without using game mode). Is LG slower than other brands? the lag has made some of my games very difficult to play as well as i used to
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
So what would be the best way to hook up a Dreamcast to an HDTV? I keep hearing varying opinions on Composite, S-Video, and VGA when I try looking for the answer elsewhere on the web, and a search for "Dreamcast" on this thread doesn't really turn up much.


What would be best for reducing lag, and what would be best for overall picture quality?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroeski /forum/post/13192943


What would be best for reducing lag, and what would be best for overall picture quality?

VGA on both counts. I have a Dreamcast that I hook up to my Samsung DLP via VGA and it looks fantastic and there's no lag to boot.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,801 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroeski /forum/post/13192943


So what would be the best way to hook up a Dreamcast to an HDTV? I keep hearing varying opinions on Composite, S-Video, and VGA when I try looking for the answer elsewhere on the web, and a search for "Dreamcast" on this thread doesn't really turn up much.


What would be best for reducing lag, and what would be best for overall picture quality?

VGA would be best since you can output 480p with the games that support it eliminating interlacing and deinterlacing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,657 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by phreaked /forum/post/13132832


is there any articles showing a list of how much each LCD tv lags by?

i bought an LG 32LC7D and i've noticed the lag, and wondering if other lcd tv's handle lag about the same (without using game mode). Is LG slower than other brands? the lag has made some of my games very difficult to play as well as i used to

I'd like this too.

For any display.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
i just took my xbox360 into a tv store and ran it in 480i mode and video split to test which tv's do better (the LG 32lc7d has a video out so comparing to it makes it easy)

my finding is that LG lcd's, inlcuding their plasma models have very bad lag compared to the rest, i was able to test a hitachi 50 inch plasma, LG 50 inch plasma, LG 32lc7d, LG 32lb4d, toshiba regza 32" lcd 67u series, and sony 32" lcd s3000.


i ran call of duty 4 to compare by aiming at objects like a car and quickly trying to aim and shoot at something else several feet away and quickly back again. the slower tv's it's very hard to do and comparing side by side you can very easily see the differences. also note i hold my own with this game, with a lagless* crt tv i have very quick aim and don't miss or overshoot and can get into top 3 in any online game mode with experienced players, once i'm warmed up. a tv with a lot of lag however, will send me to the bottom everytime with maybe one kill


the 2 plasma's i wasn't able to video split, but trying them felt about as sloppy as my own LG 32lc7d. the 32lb4d diddn't seem to do any better, i forgot to turn off trumotion for the test, but it looked like it was a frame faster. the sony and the toshiba were way faster than the LG. nothing was run in a just scan mode. to my knowledge you can't even run 'just scan' in 480i over rca composite


monday i'll be taking my tv back and i may try testing the toshiba to the sony if i can get a hold of a real video splitter.. i'm planning to buy one of those 2 now. reason i care, is i'd like to play ps2 games, and plenty of other older systems with as little lag as possible. and trying to play something like baseball on my LG it is very hard to do, very noticable in a homerun showdown, instead of homeruns to deep left centerfield i hit foul balls to right side or strikes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
Please test some Panasonics. I tried to find a TV that had no lag over a year and a half ago and eventually gave up. I tried both by hand and I also brought in a laptop and did the same sort of test that http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/ did. The only TVs that didn't seemingly have any lag at all were Panasonic LCDs. I tried every other brand, and every other brand had lag.


I eventually gave up, and I'm studying as a foreign exchange student now, so buying a new TV is unnecessary at this point, but I'd be curious to see how Panasonics still stack up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck /forum/post/12731950


FYI, I use a Westinghouse LVM-37w3 with a DVDO iScan VP30+ABT102d. This reduces lag on 480i material to between 8-10ms, and 480p/720p/1080p to 0-4ms. 8-10ms is as fast as you can physically deinterlace 480i material without severe image degradation, and I doubt there will ever be a better algorithm than the one Dale Adams wrote for DVDO.

Actually, I've been thinking of a simple idea for a deinterlacing algorithm that I think would be as fast as possible, and would do exactly what we gamers want. I'm just wondering how I could go about getting the idea into a product. Let me explain:


There are two deinterlacing schemes that involve no picture processing, but nobody actually uses them, because they produce serious artifacts. They are Interweaving and Alternating.


With the Interweaving method, the lines for each frame are simply interwoven with the lines from last frame, to produce a whole picture. When an even line frame comes in, it's simply combined with the odd lines from the last frame, and when an odd line frame comes in, it's simply combined with the even lines from the last frame.


Again, this method uses no picture processing. However, the problem with it is that the even and odd frames are from two different points in time, so they don't match up, producing a nasty "combing" effect, especially if there's horizontal movement between the two frames. Real deinterlacers (like DVDO's) do stuff like "edge-adaptive processing" to try to correct this.


With the Alternating method, each frame is sent to the TV as is, and the missing lines are simply filled in with black space. So when an even frame comes in, the odd lines just end up being black, and when an odd frame comes in, the even lines end up being black.


This also involves no picture processing, but the downside is that the whole picture ends up looking a much darker because half of each image is black.


What I'm wondering is.... why not do what CRT TVs do? CRTs, of course, display in 480i natively. That is, each frame that a CRT shows only has half of the horizontal lines. Odd and even line frames are alternated, and in each frame, the missing lines are simply left blank, like with the Alternating method. However, the picture doesn't look too dark, because the phosphors in a CRT take a little bit of time to fade, so instead of the unused lines being completely black, they show a faded after-image of the previous frame. And because the lines are faded, you don't focus on them, so you don't notice the combing effect associated with Interweaving.


So, why can't a deinterlacer just do that? Use the Interweave method, but fade the lines from the previous frame instead of showing them completely or leaving them blank. The best part is, the tiny amount of processing involved in fading the lines from one frame could be done before the next frame arrives, so when a frame comes in, it could just be interwoven with the faded previous frame and sent to the TV, with no processing time at all!


The effect of this method is that your deinterlacing time would be essentially non-existent, and that your HDTV picture would end up looking a lot like a CRT picture. Manufacturers of deinterlacers are generally trying to make interlaced movies and TV look as progressive as possible, which is probably why nobody uses this method. But for most of us gamers trying to play our old consoles on an HDTV, it's exactly what we want! We don't need fancy-shmancy edge adaptive processing. We just want our games to look and play like they always have (but on a bigger, cooler screen)!


It would be really nice if some manufacturer like DVDO would create a simple, relatively inexpensive, but extremely fast de-interlacer/scaler that did nothing but deinterlace 480i signals with this kind of method and spit them out in 1080p over HDMI, and then market the device specifically toward gamers. No multiple resolutions, no optional add-on cards sold separately, no advanced processing, no endless list of options, and no any of the other fancy professional bells-and-whistles that make their products so insanely expensive. Just deinterlace and scale our games as fast as possible so we can play without the frustration, and sell it to us at a price we can afford.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
is there any way i can test my tv with gh3 demo from xbox live i dont have the guitar so i cant strum i dont think unless you can do it on controller with that said i have the sony kds60a3000 when i put on gamemode i dont feel lag at all really
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Hi,

I'm trying to connect my Dreamcast to a Vizio GV47LF using a Naki VGA adapter. For some reason my VGA output trys to run at 50Hz instead of 60Hz. Is it possible I accidentally got the PAL version of the Naki? Or is it the Dreamcast itself that is the problem (it's a US version for sure)? If anyone has any ideas on what I could do, I'd appreciate it. For now I'm just running it through the S-Video port.

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
So scanning through this thread I haven't seen a lot of talk about CRT HDTVs. I know the topic creator said even those have issues, but what does the community have to say about top of the line CRT HDTVs? I'm desperate to get input lag equivalent to my SD CRT, and I'm even willing to pick up a new tv to do it.


So opinions on CRT HDTV's ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce /forum/post/13354257


It would be really nice if some manufacturer like DVDO would create a simple, relatively inexpensive, but extremely fast de-interlacer/scaler that did nothing but deinterlace 480i signals with this kind of method and spit them out in 1080p over HDMI, and then market the device specifically toward gamers. No multiple resolutions, no optional add-on cards sold separately, no advanced processing, no endless list of options, and no any of the other fancy professional bells-and-whistles that make their products so insanely expensive. Just deinterlace and scale our games as fast as possible so we can play without the frustration, and sell it to us at a price we can afford.

My god....that was beautiful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Bump. Got a question here. Noticed in the FAQ that this was mentioned:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck /forum/post/0


The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.

I don't have a VGA port on the back of my HDTV, so I probably will have to go this route with my Dreamcast. However, I've got a question - does a VGA to Component adapter like the 9A60 cause any input lag?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
I apologize for the bump, but I have a large post to share.



I just purchased a Sharp Aquos 42" LCD. The product name is LC-42D64U. I believe they're discontinuing this model, so I got it at a great deal (which is why I didn't go up into a 120 Hz model). Read on for my story.


Like other posters in this thread, I've been interested in buying an HDTV for a few years now, but I didn't want to settle for a poor solution. I was disheartened to learn that many solutions needed $2000 boxes imported from Japan. I even posted in this thread back around page 14 or so, showing my displeasure. I did research, tried HDTVs at friends' houses... I hated the results. I knew I would have to settle if I bought any HDTV.


Recently, a good friend of mine bought a Sharp Aquos 26" LCD. I brought over my gaming setups to his house to test the lag. After a ton of tinkering, we were able to get Guitar Hero 2's in-game lag calibration down to about 30 ms, which was the best TV I had found at the time. I could play GH serviceably, and I was able to get used to the lag in games like Smash Bros Melee (though it was noticeable). But beatmania IIDX and 3rd Strike, two games I take quite seriously, were still unplayable (in IIDX, goods filled the screen and in 3rd Strike, I was missing full-screen fireball parries unless I was intentionally early; good luck trying to, say, point-blank-parry supers).


After finding out about this sale for the LC-42D64U at a local store, though, I decided to pick up the TV while I could and come home and mess with it a bit, taking care to note their return policy.


For my first test, we plugged in 3rd Strike (on PS2) through the normal composite cables, and tried without changing any settings. As you can expect, the results were less than perfect. I decided to try GH3 (not 2)'s lag calibration system. My first test came up to be about 30 ms, which I thought was extremely weird. After about 10 tests, I averaged about 20 ms lag. I played a few songs with the lag adjustment, and it was pretty reasonable, but I still sensed a few misses, and I knew 3rd Strike was no good. Disappointed, I gave up for the evening.


Coincidentally, a good friend of mine chose to buy a PS3 that day. He brought it over, because we had planned to play MGS4 for most of the day. He bought a set of Sony component cables which worked with both the PS3 and the PS2 (I didn't know PS2 had component cables, because basically no games support 480p on PS2). We had a grand time playing MGS4 in 1080p and Devil May Cry 4 in 720p through these cables with zero lag. That was encouraging to learn, because some TVs even have problems with this.


On a whim, I decided to try 3rd Strike again through the components. I didn't expect any change in results... after all, 3rd Strike is a 480i game, so the upscaling has to be done SOMEWHERE. Indeed, my TV even said in the top corner "480i [component]" when I turned on the PS2. My friend fired a full screen fireball at me, and I got hit. But then we remembered that we had turned the A/V mode to something other than "game", when we were playing MGS4. We switched it back to game, and he threw the fireball at me again. I ... parried it. He threw a full screen 5-hit fireball super at me, and I... I somehow parried it. We went on to play an hour of 3rd Strike *exactly* how we play it in the arcade. To confirm that this worked with other games, I popped back in GH3. The lag calibration said 0 ms. I popped in the truest of all tests (beatmania IIDX) and I ended up even beating some of my old CRT scores. I popped in Melee (a Gamecube game played through my Wii hooked up through component cables), there was 0 lag. I tried Brawl (a Wii game), there was 0 lag.


Now, all these were through component cables. I hooked up my old N64 through composite cables (since I still play Perfect Dark for fun quite often). We had done this the first night, before we really messed around with game mode, and there was about 20 ms of lag (as above), which is less than a frame of lag since PD runs at 30 fps most of the time. We felt a little "drunk" walking around, but within 5 minutes we were playing through it just fine. Still... we had to settle just a little bit. I just tried it now, making sure the TV was on game mode and... MAYBE there was 5-8 milliseconds of lag. I can't really say, because walking around the various levels felt exactly like my CRT, and I was making all the same shots I normally make with no difficulty at all.

Here is a Youtube video of my TV in action, demonstrating that there really is 0 lag with a variety of different games. I'm so ecstatic with the results of this that I am 100% positive I don't need my old CRT anymore. This TV's "game mode" REALLY means it. I wanted to share my results with this thread, in case someone can get use out of it.


I should also say that the PS2 games through component looked very sharp, despite being lagless. It almost looks upscaled in some way. There's no pixelation or blurriness. I don't really understand how they do it, but I'm not questioning it.
The N64 games had a little bit of pixelation/blurriness, but it's certainly not deal-breaking (and, after all, it's to be expected if the picture isn't being improved). As an example, PD was 100% playable in every way.


To summarize, here are my results:

Any console N64 or older through composite: arguably
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
Discussion Starter #520

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamecube ichiban /forum/post/14177610


Infil

you know, a lot of PS2 games do actually support 480p through component, even Street Fighter 3rd Strike I believe.

=)

Most don't. 3rd Strike for PS2 has never supported 480p.
 
501 - 520 of 718 Posts
Top