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Hello!


I have a friend who was neither an audiophile nor a videophile (but is definitely a techie into computers) decide from going from simply buying cheap bassy some speakers and a cheap reciever for his computer to, well, completely selling all trace of his bedroom audio and video systems, and going complete HTPC.


Damn, I wasn't even TRYING to do that...it just happened--i was just trying to figure out the best deal for him!


He began this by posting this HERE:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread....hreadid=400816


and then I got ahold of him....



He is probably going to do this....


He is going to sell....

his current multimedia speakers

his current keyboard.

his current stereo minisystem.

his current sound card

his current monitor

his current dvd player

his current tv


he is probably going to buy....

1 new sound card (potentially two sound cards instead)

1 new tv, hopefully hdtv-ready (so he can hook it up directly to the computer)

1 new integrated amp with remote control (potentially a digital audio reciever instead)

1 new set of two tower speakers

1 new wireless keyboard to go with his current wireless mouse


See? a much simpler system, no switching back and forth from this to that... and he likes that idea. He also likes the idea of a very major video and sound upgrade, and of being able to game and do computer work and whatever form bed..


This is going to be a bedroom system, by the way....


You will see I attached a picture of his room....


And now, this chat where all of this happened.... it is a very long read, but quite fun, imo. It helps show a bit more about what sort of system he wants, his budget (which I managed to increase and consolidate BIG TIME... he's gonna be selling more than he planned to!!).


So, on with the EXTREMELY LONG CHAT!



xGameRx256: acually i have it in a picture i can send ya

glueycwal: and....? if you aren't willing to upgrade your mp3's

xGameRx256: the stuff im buying

glueycwal: there is really no reason to get a 2.0 setup

glueycwal: hey

xGameRx256: lemme send

xGameRx256: hold on

glueycwal: dont buy it yet!

xGameRx256: i di dnot

xGameRx256: did

glueycwal: there is a LOT OF CRAP out there

xGameRx256: lemme send the picture of what iw as planning on buying

xGameRx256: it a reciver and 2 floor standers

xGameRx256: lemme get it

xGameRx256 wants to send file speaker project.bmp: this is the pictures

xGameRx256: im on 56k =( no bradband down here

xGameRx256: broadband

glueycwal: why not compress it to a jpg?

glueycwal: or a gif

glueycwal: instead of a bmp??

xGameRx256: umm fergot to

glueycwal canceled request; the file will not be sent.

glueycwal: well...

xGameRx256: ?


glueycwal: do it

xGameRx256 wants to send file speaker project compressed.jpg: here

glueycwal received C:\\My Documents\\download\\Glueycwal\\speaker project compressed.jpg.

glueycwal: *sigh* you can get so much better quality at that price

glueycwal: it's really kind of sad

glueycwal: okay...

glueycwal: so, when buying floor standers

glueycwal: you have to look at your room

glueycwal: how is your room setup?

glueycwal: will you have an equilateral triangle between you and the speakers, pretty much?

xGameRx256: ill buy em end of the month

glueycwal: don't.

glueycwal: can you answer my question?

xGameRx256: k...

glueycwal: please/

glueycwal: ?

xGameRx256: what question

xGameRx256: i was upstairs for a sec

glueycwal: glueycwal: so, when buying floor standers

glueycwal: you have to look at your room

glueycwal: how is your room setup?

glueycwal: will you have an equilateral triangle between you and the speakers, pretty much?

glueycwal: ------

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: how big is your room? you are gonna be that far away from the speakers?

xGameRx256: nope i wont be far

glueycwal: like, 8 feet or so between the speakers

xGameRx256: ill be like 5 feet away

xGameRx256: or 8

glueycwal: Speaker - ---8 ft ------ speaker

\\ /

\\ /

8ft 8ft

\\ /



you

glueycwal: and the monitor is gonna be in the middle of that?

glueycwal:

Speaker - ---8 ft ------ speaker

\\ /

\\ /

8ft 8ft

\\ /



you

xGameRx256: ya

xGameRx256: y?


glueycwal: how big is your @#$(*&! monitor?

xGameRx256: 21

xGameRx256: and a hook up to the tv

xGameRx256: the moniter and tv is in the same spot

glueycwal: Speaker -4ft-monitor- 4 ft-- speaker

\\ /

\\ /

8ft 8ft

\\ /

\\ /

\\ /

you

glueycwal: grrrr

glueycwal:

Speaker -4ft-monitor- 4 ft-- speaker

\\ /

\\ /

8ft 8ft

\\ /

\\ /

\\ /

you

glueycwal: there we go!

glueycwal: gyah

glueycwal: okay.....

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: we'll need to ask the experts

xGameRx256: the moniter is under the tv the tv hangs on the wall

glueycwal: why exactly do you want a reciever instead of an integrated amp?

xGameRx256: whats intergrated amp?


glueycwal: if it is a 2.0 setup, you can get better sound quality and more volume

xGameRx256: im a noob

xGameRx256: il plan on adding a sub during the summer

glueycwal: if you sacrafice all of those digital features that you dont need, like decoding and radio stations and ****.

glueycwal: cause your sound card will output an analog signal

glueycwal: and your dvd will too

glueycwal: both are made for 2.0 setups that way.

xGameRx256: ok

glueycwal: so you dont need to have any digital stuff

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: you want the upgradeability of a reciever, or a hi-fi setup instead?

xGameRx256: upgrade

glueycwal: okay

glueycwal: you know you can have reciever -> amp -> speakers

glueycwal: or reciever -> speakers

glueycwal: or amp -> speakers

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: so you can make this a part of your future system

glueycwal: regardless of what you buy now

xGameRx256: cool

glueycwal: and, imo, i'd suggest the loudest and highest quality one.... however,

glueycwal: however, your music source sucks

glueycwal: badly

xGameRx256: i do have a stero

glueycwal: REALLY badly...

glueycwal: and you would play CD's on this?

glueycwal: instead of mp3's?

xGameRx256: i can hook up to it and play cd throught thast

glueycwal: you have a component cd player?

glueycwal: or a minisystem?

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: which?

xGameRx256: a panasonic

xGameRx256: it old but loud

glueycwal: those campy aiwa minisystems that have a tape deck, cd player, radio, two speakers, etc. etc.

glueycwal: in one?

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: those suck

glueycwal: so you dont have any good sources

xGameRx256: not really

glueycwal: okay.

xGameRx256: phone brb

glueycwal: we are going to have to work on your source. everything needs work, bud.

glueycwal: EVERYTHING....

xGameRx256: b ack

glueycwal: okay... you should decide. why do you need a reciever now? what are you willing to sacrafice for that? loudness, quality?

glueycwal: you can add anything you buy now to a home theater setup later

xGameRx256: i want both

xGameRx256: what wil i need now

glueycwal: well, lets look at your sources.

1 crappy sound card that should be able to pass through ac3 for a reciever to decode. it can, with software, decode ac3 to dolby digital 5.1 and send it to anything that can take a line level analog input. an integrated amp can take a line level analog input, and a reciever can take a digital and an analog input.

you have 1 crappy minisystem, which can probably output analog input via rca (unpowered!) jacks, but probably has a very noisy DAC in it

glueycwal: you have dvd's that you want to watch, from a component dvd player

glueycwal: and you have badly encoded mp3's you want to watch

glueycwal: things aren't looking good, friend...

xGameRx256: i also have a regular dvd player

xGameRx256: if it makes difference

glueycwal: thats what a component dvd player is.

glueycwal: that should be a better source than the minisystem

xGameRx256: i c

glueycwal: for cd's

glueycwal: so, that is your best bet for quality

glueycwal: that can pass through the ac3 signal to a reciever, or output a line level signal to an integrated amp or to a reciever

glueycwal: okay?

xGameRx256: yup

glueycwal: so.... seeing as how you could go either way, what is most appealing right now?

glueycwal: with the knowledge that you can add whatever you buy to any later system?

glueycwal: and the knowledge that, the more you pay on as few different digital thingies as possible, the better quality they are?

glueycwal: ie, a specialist will sound better than an equally priced jack of all trades

xGameRx256: ? im confused

glueycwal: well.....

glueycwal: i think we need to ask others

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: please register here

glueycwal: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...5&pagenumber=1

glueycwal: can you give a rough description of the layout of the room?

glueycwal: and can you name the exact components in your current system?

xGameRx256: ya

xGameRx256: as in system

xGameRx256: my comp

xGameRx256: or

glueycwal: both.

glueycwal: the same, for both

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: we want to do a big upgrade.

glueycwal: :)

glueycwal: something that AT LEAST makes your system in both well rounded!

glueycwal: you might have to sell everything audio related that you have

glueycwal: but itll be worth it

glueycwal: if you buy new stuff

glueycwal: that is 800000 times better

glueycwal: :)

xGameRx256: i wont sell it il just guive em to my bro

xGameRx256: il just buy em

glueycwal: well to increase your budget

glueycwal: i mean

xGameRx256: o i c

xGameRx256: ya sure

glueycwal: for a complete overhaul

glueycwal: so... register for those forums

glueycwal: and then start posting a new post at audio and hi fi

xGameRx256: i have some one is supposeed to buy some car speakers for 100 bucks that i paid like 30 on

glueycwal: and i will walk you through what to say

glueycwal: okay?

xGameRx256: k

xGameRx256: and also

xGameRx256: im selling my fps 2000 to some kid for a hundred bucks also

glueycwal: yea...

xGameRx256: so ill have a increase in budget

glueycwal: after selling EVERYTHING

glueycwal: and I mean everything

glueycwal: including the dvd player, most likely

xGameRx256: why

glueycwal: well

xGameRx256: i paid 300 for it

glueycwal: what brand is it?

xGameRx256: sony

glueycwal: okay, not the dvd player...

xGameRx256: whew

glueycwal: that can be your best source

glueycwal: for cd's and dvd's

xGameRx256: thats what i planned on

glueycwal: okay

glueycwal: do you plan on doing 2 speaker gaming a lot?

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: okay...

glueycwal: and having pretty good dvd and sound quality from your comp is important?

xGameRx256: 2 speaker with a sub

xGameRx256: ill buy a sub later this summer

glueycwal: uhhhhh

glueycwal: not necessarily]

glueycwal: these full range speakers of yours....

glueycwal: you might not need a sub

glueycwal: cause you are getting two full ranges

xGameRx256: the ones im buying?

xGameRx256: the cerwin

xGameRx256: riught

glueycwal: no, the ones you are gonna buy

xGameRx256: right

glueycwal: that are completely different than those

xGameRx256: o i c

xGameRx256: well u have a link to them

glueycwal: well

glueycwal: are you registered yet?

xGameRx256: ya i am

glueycwal: you will be posting this in two different places....

xGameRx256: my name is the same as in the hardforums

glueycwal: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...?s=&forumid=17


and
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...?s=&forumid=26

glueycwal: the 'home theater computer' section and the 'audio and hi-fi' section

glueycwal: okay

glueycwal: are you at either of those forums?

glueycwal: ready to post?

glueycwal: (it should be the same thing in both...)

xGameRx256: im in them

glueycwal: okay

glueycwal: so, in this post, you will have to have some sort of catchy title, like, "$1000 Hi-fi and HTPC overhaul?"

xGameRx256: ok ill use that title

xGameRx256: cant post yet

xGameRx256: it says i awating activation

glueycwal: you will have to be stating your current system in it's entirety -- your tv, your monitor, your basic computer, your sound card, your aiwa system, your multimedia speakers, your dvd player, and anything else relevant...

glueycwal: well, start typing it in notepad

glueycwal: and check your email

glueycwal: lol

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: okay, so.... tell me when you have that title and a description of your current system's components in that txt file

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: do you have that?

xGameRx256: im posting now

glueycwal: NO!

glueycwal: DO NOT POST NOW!

xGameRx256: k...

xGameRx256: what u want then

glueycwal: WE ARE ABOUT 10% THROUGH

glueycwal: TYPING THIS POST

glueycwal: lol, it's gonna be a ****ing ESSAY when I'm through with you....

glueycwal: >: )

xGameRx256: =(

glueycwal: don't worry.

glueycwal: you dont want to put $1000 down the drain?

xGameRx256: not really

glueycwal: think of it as insurence on your investment

xGameRx256: i want like 700 down the drain

xGameRx256: but if i have to

xGameRx256: hold on

glueycwal: okay...

so, say that you are wanting to upgrade your system, very badly. Right now, you have a computer that you like to game and watch dvd's on sharing space with a dvd player.

xGameRx256: what if i only use this for my dvd player

xGameRx256: on my tv

glueycwal: *explain your setup, to every foot and how everything is set up, exactly*

glueycwal: (we'll get to that!)

glueycwal: okay, are you typing in that txt file yet?

glueycwal: what i just told you to do?

xGameRx256: ya

glueycwal: tell me when you are done

glueycwal: you are gonna need to explain room dimensions, where everything is put,everything

glueycwal: tell me when you have that written

xGameRx256: im writing it

glueycwal: cool

glueycwal: explain exactly where you wish to put two floor standing speakers

glueycwal: and how flexible that is

xGameRx256: flexible what is

glueycwal: are you 'locked into' one exact placement, or can you move things around a lot?

xGameRx256: o ya i can move thigs around

glueycwal: good

xGameRx256: things

glueycwal: mention that

xGameRx256: where can i upload a pic

xGameRx256: ill draw out my room setup

glueycwal: this should tell you
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/misc.php?s=&action=faq

xGameRx256: K, i want to upgrade my sound system


for my comp i watch dvds and play games it shares space with my dvd player which is a sony

i also have a mini stereo which has the tape deck and cd player in it

my sound card is a SB_LIVE Xgamer 4.1


xGameRx256: whould that work

xGameRx256: when i post

glueycwal: is that everything you wrote?

glueycwal: no, it won't....

glueycwal: i'll write it for you

xGameRx256: what else u want

glueycwal: you fill in the blanks

glueycwal: okay?

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: can you do that?

xGameRx256: yup

glueycwal: it will be much longer than that

xGameRx256: k

xGameRx256: sure ill let ya do it and ill fill int he blanks

glueycwal: and edit it and ****?

xGameRx256: sure

xGameRx256: ill draw my room out for ya to show how its setup

glueycwal: is your monitor on top of your tv or below?

xGameRx256: below

xGameRx256 wants to send file my room.jpg: my room setup

glueycwal: heya

glueycwal received C:\\My Documents\\download\\Glueycwal\\my room.jpg.

xGameRx256: o ****

glueycwal: still writing....

xGameRx256: wait i didnt

xGameRx256: i tought i fergot the comp

glueycwal: and the comp is where?

glueycwal: you have this for a bed system?

glueycwal: and you are gonna be watching this in bed and stuff?

xGameRx256: sure it my room i sleep in

glueycwal: and the mouse and keyboard is in bed?

xGameRx256: ill be buying a sofa bed at the end of the year

xGameRx256: no

glueycwal: you should say it is a pull out sofa bed....

xGameRx256: its on the desk thing

glueycwal: what desk thing?

xGameRx256: well u kno what i mean

glueycwal: i dont

glueycwal: please put it in the picture

xGameRx256: sure

glueycwal: cause THEY gotta know too!

glueycwal: what is your computer spot,

glueycwal: waht is your tv spot?

xGameRx256: above the moniter

glueycwal: nonono

glueycwal: where do you sit to....

glueycwal: 1. game

glueycwal: 2. watch tv

glueycwal: 3. listen to music

glueycwal: and are they the same?

glueycwal: draw a circle for the sweet spot for each of those

glueycwal: lol

xGameRx256: hold on lemem update pic

glueycwal: and label it

glueycwal: if possible, you might want to try and move things around so that the sweet spot and work spot for each and every one of these

glueycwal: is the same

glueycwal: ie, the couch

glueycwal: you can get wireless keboards, wireless mice

glueycwal: sell the monitor, sell the tv, get a basic hdtv-ready tv....

glueycwal: hook it up to a htpc

xGameRx256: i got wireless mouse already

xGameRx256: i was planning on a wireless keyboard

glueycwal: and wireless keyboard? that nice logitech one?

glueycwal: well than

glueycwal: add that to your list of things to get

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: here's what I would do.....

1. upgrade to hdtv. screw the monitor, screw the tv. sell 'em.

2. use htpc as your only source. get a high quality sound card that is great for games, music, and dvd's.

3. change all of your cd's to high quality mp3's, and use the htpc as a jukebox. that way, you dont have to worry about your sucky computer dvd-rom drive messing up the cd sound.

4. game, work, watch tv, do everything in the same spot, using wireless stuff (from logitech). your sweet spot will be the couch and bed....

5. let your computer and sound card and software do all the 2 channel decoding for dvd's, all of that. you may even want a dual sound card setup to make it best for this.

6. get a high quality integrated amp and a high quality set of tower speakers

xGameRx256 wants to send file my room.jpg: here

xGameRx256: u think im rich

glueycwal: that basically means

glueycwal: selling EVERYTHING

xGameRx256: im 16

glueycwal: and I do mean *EVERYTHING*

glueycwal received C:\\My Documents\\download\\Glueycwal\\my room.jpg.

glueycwal: you can do it in your budget

glueycwal: except maybe the tv part

glueycwal: how much could you get for the tv and monitor?

glueycwal: dude, if you sell everything, you could get *one system* (count it, ONE SYSTEM) that does everything....

glueycwal: and does it all VERY WELL.....

glueycwal: no switching from this to that source

glueycwal: for the tv or sound or anything

xGameRx256: i was planning on buying a tv nex year

glueycwal: very simple.....

glueycwal: good!

glueycwal: than add that to the budget!

glueycwal: and sell your monitor, your current tv, pretty much everything except your computer.... lol......

glueycwal: all of that sound stuff, everything

xGameRx256: is the drawing better


glueycwal: and go full htpc

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: ah...... a question.....

glueycwal: if you upgrade to htpc, and get a hdtv

glueycwal: will you mind gaming from the bed?

xGameRx256: yes

glueycwal: you do not want to do that?

xGameRx256: i like to be up at it

glueycwal: for best sound I mean?

glueycwal: even if you end up with a big ass tv?

xGameRx256: o well

xGameRx256: u put it that way

xGameRx256: sure

glueycwal: so, if you end up with a big ass tv and speakers that pretty much sound very much best when you are in the sweet spot

glueycwal: and you can have pretty much a home theater-esque gaming experience....

glueycwal: btw, why no rear speakers?

glueycwal: in the budget?

xGameRx256: umm

xGameRx256: i have a 1000 budget

xGameRx256: here

glueycwal: could you sacrafice towers

xGameRx256: umm

glueycwal: for a 5.1 setup?

xGameRx256: mmm

xGameRx256: will it be 5.1 for

xGameRx256: games

glueycwal: only if you get a sound blaster audigy...

glueycwal: which will compromise sound quality

xGameRx256: well i really only wanted it for music

glueycwal: for everything else.

xGameRx256: i wanted a booming sound

glueycwal: okay, then....

glueycwal: you can get better than that.

glueycwal: you can get tight, impacting, deep, authoritative bass

glueycwal: which is much better than boom

glueycwal: MUCH better

glueycwal: cause that can boom if you tell it to

glueycwal: and it can sound more realistic and well-defined when you tell it to

glueycwal: having tight, undistorted, un-booming bass means it's more versatile

glueycwal: it doesn't boom when something non-boomy plays

glueycwal: accuracy = good

always booming = bad


booming only when you give it a source that has boom = good

glueycwal: follow?

xGameRx256: yup

glueycwal: okay. so.... this is going to be a much bigger overhaul than we thought!

glueycwal: are you going to take this dive?

glueycwal: you're gonna have to commit, man...

glueycwal: big time....

glueycwal: this is gonna be a very big change

xGameRx256: ok

glueycwal: selling all of these systems off

glueycwal: including your tv and monitor

xGameRx256: i guess ill have to

glueycwal: and making it all one beautiful system

xGameRx256: ****

xGameRx256: my moniter

glueycwal: hey

glueycwal: hdtv = better

xGameRx256: i know

glueycwal: ;-)

xGameRx256: but i love my sony moniter

glueycwal: ooohhhh.....21" sony.... *grunts*

glueycwal: well, if you wanna game from the sweet spot in the sound

glueycwal: and have a truly cinematic gaming experience

glueycwal: .... is that worth it to you?

xGameRx256: ugh

xGameRx256: i dont know

xGameRx256: all i wanted was a kick ass speakers

xGameRx256: and im windning up with a new tv

xGameRx256: in it

glueycwal: and what you get is a kick ass new system

xGameRx256: true

glueycwal: trust me man.... having a mismatched mutt

xGameRx256: i wonder what my mom is gonna say

glueycwal: means that you are pissing money to the wind

xGameRx256: lol

xGameRx256: well

glueycwal: if you get one very very versatile system.....

glueycwal: that does it ALL....

xGameRx256: i just have to find someine to rip off or somthing

glueycwal: than you have something very special....

glueycwal: yea.....

glueycwal: hey

xGameRx256: my tv is no the greates

glueycwal: can you figure out how much you can get, total, for everything?

xGameRx256: it slike 24 inches

glueycwal: after you sell all of it, and add the tv budget

glueycwal: to your 'gamerx complete htpc overhaul' thing?

xGameRx256: i dunno

xGameRx256: if anone is gonna buy it

glueycwal: you were having a seperate 'buy a new tv' budget

glueycwal: and a seperate 'buy new speakers' budget

glueycwal: can you combine them?

xGameRx256: i was planning on the tv after the speakers

xGameRx256: and was not playing more then 500 for a tv

glueycwal: i think that you might wanna try and sell them all at once

glueycwal: and get it ALL at once

glueycwal: or at least

glueycwal: have a very definite plan

glueycwal: for 'sell this, buy this. sell this, buy this.'

glueycwal: you know?

xGameRx256: ya

xGameRx256: true

glueycwal: do you mind selling that dvd player?

xGameRx256: yes

xGameRx256: i love it

xGameRx256: its a kick ass dvd player

glueycwal: its a pity, though, it's your best source... but you can get a htpc to be better.

xGameRx256: it not one of those 5 dvd changer things tho

glueycwal: if you tweak enough....

glueycwal: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...threadid=31225

glueycwal: you should bookmark that

glueycwal: you are going to sell....

current multimedia speakers

current keyboard.

current minisystem.

current sound card

current monitor

current dvd player

current tv


you are going to buy

1 new sound card (potentially two sound cards instead)

1 new hdtv-ready tv

1 new integrated amp with remote control (potentially a digital audio reciever instead)

1 new set of two tower speakers

1 new wireless keyboard to go with your wireless mouse

glueycwal: you are going to learn how to copy all of your cd's to mp3 so that the mp3's are cd quality

xGameRx256: k

glueycwal: read this 'collection of faq's'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...threadid=31225

glueycwal: how important is having the best two channel gaming sound?

glueycwal: how important is having game sound that works?

glueycwal: how important is having the best eax (reverb, occlusion, and obstruction) effects, especially for new and unreleased games?

glueycwal: how important is keeping this down to only one sound card?

glueycwal: i can help you with THAT decision

glueycwal: which should make your life easier

glueycwal: :)

glueycwal: can I post this chat?

xGameRx256: sure
 

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674 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Woah, the formatting of my equilateral triangles got REALLY REALLY messed up, rofl!!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
His current computer specs are as follows:


Pentium 4 1.8A

Xtasy Geforce 4 440 64MB DDR

Asus P4T-E

(2) 128RDRAM =256MB

Pioneer 16x DVD

Philips Rewriter 8/4/32

WD 40gig 5400rpm

SB-Live xgamer

Netgear NIC

3com Gaming modem

Windows 2000 /w Service Pack 2


Minus the soundcard, does that look like a good start to a gaming/htpc/jukebox/etc. rig?
 

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If anyone ever does a poll on which post gave you the biggest headache, I'd vote for this one. Honestly, who can or will read it? I suspect the poster has honest intentions, and I don't want to overly criticize, but if you want a response, I think you've got to be a little more concise. If you just want to write. go for it, but, like I said, I'm going for an aspirin.
 

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Hi Gluegun:


___Welcome to the forums and about the only thing I can do is point you to the FAQ at the top of the first page of posts …


___As for this threads contents, I have been accused of long posts before but this was over the top, don’t you think? After scanning the contents, I have no idea what you are asking for? Please ask a few direct questions and make them a bit more manageable. Afterwards, you may get a more appropriate response. If it hasn’t been culled by morning, I will have to lock it up as mostly OT discussion. You can use the edit button to delete the OT stuff and insert a question or two but please, do this as soon as possible.


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 
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