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Is Denon AVR-1910 enough (sound quality & power) for Monitor Audio Silver RS6?

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all! I need to decide soon between Denon's AVR-1910, AVR-890 (AVR-2310), and AVR-3310. The 890 and 3310 are $150 and $400 more than the 1910 respectively, and this is something to consider.


I have also learned that when purchasing anything, if I cut corners to the extent that I am wanting more, then I will not be happy with my purchase. I need to decide if the 1910 is lacking in a substantial way.


My current speakers are quite small - Energy Take Classic (7 channel). However, I expect at some point in the future I will be upgrading my speakers - likely Monitor Audio Silver RX6.


I have considered the differences between the three receivers, but would like to have opinions on if there is a noticeable audio quality difference between the three, and will the extra power be significant with the MA Silver speakers.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/...mageField.y=31


From this comparison page, here is the list of differences: (not comprehensive, just my quick observations)


120W (.05 THD)

105W (.08 THD)

90W (.08 THD)


AL24+ Processing (L/R)

No AL24+

No AL24+


24/192 AK4358 DACs

24/192 ADAU1328 DACs

24/192 ADAU1328 DACs


24/96 Burr-Brown PCM-1803 D/A Conversion

24/96 D/A Conversion

24/96 D/A Conversion


Inputs Dig Coax / Dig Optical / Analog Stereo / Composite / S-Video / Component

3/3/9/7/7/3(100MHz)

2/3/9/4/3/2(60MHz)

2/2/8/4/1/2(60MHz)


Outputs Dig Optical / Composite / S-Video

1/3/3

1/2/2

1/2/0


Digital to Analog REC Out

yes

no

no


Phono Input

yes

yes

no


RS-232

RS-232

No RS-232


RJ-45 Network A/V Stream + Internet Radio, etc.

No RJ-45

No RJ-45


PC Setup/Control

No PC Setup/Control

No PC Setup/Control


+12v Trigger

2 x 150mA

1

0


Multi-Source/Zone

3S/3Z Selectable output level, Composite video out

2S/2Z Selectable output level

2S/2Z No Selectable output level


8-Channel Preamp Outputs

Subwoofer Preamp Output

Subwoofer Preamp Output


USB Flash/HDD Port

No USB Flash/HDD Port

No USB Flash/HDD Port


28.6 lb, 17.1W x 6.7H x 16.3D

24.9 lb, 17.1W x 6.7H x 14.9D

23.6 lb, 17.1W x 6.7H x 14.9D


Then there are other GUI, OSD, etc. differences as well as aesthetics...


Everyone is welcome to pick these differences apart and point out any that may be significant as I am not sure what many of them really mean. For instance, AL24+ processing - sounds important to audio quality, but I have no idea.


Thanks very much for your input...




EDIT: Monitor Audio RX6 Specs

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/produ.../specification


System Format: 2 1/2 Way

Frequency Response: 38Hz - 35kHz

Sensitivity ([email protected]): 90dB

Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms

Maximum SPL (dBA): 114.8

Power Handling (RMS): 125W

Recommended Amplifier Requirements (RMS): 40-125W

Bass Alignment: Dual Chamber, Bass reflex with differential tuning.

Twin HiVe®II port System

Tweeter Crossover Frequency: LF: 700Hz

MF/HF: 2.7kHz

Drive Unit Complement: 1 x 6" RST® Bass driver.

1 x 6" RST® Bass/Mid driver.

1 x 1" (25mm) C-CAM® gold dome tweeter

External Dimensions:

(H x W x D)

inc. plinth & feet 905 x 275 x 310 mm

(37 5/8 x 10 13/16 x 12 3/16 inch)

Individual Weight: 16.4 Kg (36.13 lb)
 

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Slow down there! All the specs are great to look at on paper. Get the highest level one you can afford. 30 watts between the three will not make mutch of a difference.
 

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Buy what you need and can easly afford. All will sound about the same unless you max-out the amps by clipping, than a few more watts will be very useful.
 

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Since your speakers are 6 ohm nominal, the 1910 will suffice quite nicely. If you like its features, then it is a good choice for you



But for the extra $$$ that the 890 or 3310 will cost, you would be better served to steer clear of Denon and get a THX certified AVR from Onkyo or Pioneer. They are less expensive and much better quality than the Denons.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull /forum/post/18283395


Since your speakers are 6 ohm nominal, the 1910 will suffice quite nicely. If you like its features, then it is a good choice for you



But for the extra $$$ that the 890 or 3310 will cost, you would be better served to steer clear of Denon and get a THX certified AVR from Onkyo or Pioneer. They are less expensive and much better quality than the Denons.

Are you sure about that? Just asking.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull /forum/post/18285113


Yes, quite sure. Read the review of the 3310 here and pay special attention to the comments section at the end.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/recei...-receiver.html

Sitting Bull aka Todd Sauve, you should fully disclose that those are your comments. Additionally, citing your own opinions to "prove" your conclusion smacks of circular reasoning.


AJ
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel /forum/post/18282354


Hi all! I need to decide soon between Denon's AVR-1910, AVR-890 (AVR-2310), and AVR-3310. The 890 and 3310 are $150 and $400 more than the 1910 respectively, and this is something to consider.


I have also learned that when purchasing anything, if I cut corners to the extent that I am wanting more, then I will not be happy with my purchase. I need to decide if the 1910 is lacking in a substantial way.


My current speakers are quite small - Energy Take Classic (7 channel). However, I expect at some point in the future I will be upgrading my speakers - likely Monitor Audio Silver RX6.


I have considered the differences between the three receivers, but would like to have opinions on if there is a noticeable audio quality difference between the three, and will the extra power be significant with the MA Silver speakers.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/...mageField.y=31


From this comparison page, here is the list of differences: (not comprehensive, just my quick observations)


90W (.05 THD)

105W (.08 THD)

120W (.08 THD)


AL24+ Processing (L/R)

No AL24+

No AL24+


24/192 AK4358 DACs

24/192 ADAU1328 DACs

24/192 ADAU1328 DACs


24/96 Burr-Brown PCM-1803 D/A Conversion

24/96 D/A Conversion

24/96 D/A Conversion


Inputs Dig Coax / Dig Optical / Analog Stereo / Composite / S-Video / Component

3/3/9/7/7/3(100MHz)

2/3/9/4/3/2(60MHz)

2/2/8/4/1/2(60MHz)


Outputs Dig Optical / Composite / S-Video

1/3/3

1/2/2

1/2/0


Digital to Analog REC Out

yes

no

no


Phono Input

yes

yes

no


RS-232

RS-232

No RS-232


RJ-45 Network A/V Stream + Internet Radio, etc.

No RJ-45

No RJ-45


PC Setup/Control

No PC Setup/Control

No PC Setup/Control


+12v Trigger

2 x 150mA

1

0


Multi-Source/Zone

3S/3Z Selectable output level, Composite video out

2S/2Z Selectable output level

2S/2Z No Selectable output level


8-Channel Preamp Outputs

Subwoofer Preamp Output

Subwoofer Preamp Output


USB Flash/HDD Port

No USB Flash/HDD Port

No USB Flash/HDD Port


28.6 lb, 17.1W x 6.7H x 16.3D

24.9 lb, 17.1W x 6.7H x 14.9D

23.6 lb, 17.1W x 6.7H x 14.9D


Then there are other GUI, OSD, etc. differences as well as aesthetics...


Everyone is welcome to pick these differences apart and point out any that may be significant as I am not sure what many of them really mean. For instance, AL24+ processing - sounds important to audio quality, but I have no idea.


Thanks very much for your input...




EDIT: Monitor Audio RX6 Specs

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/produ.../specification


System Format: 2 1/2 Way

Frequency Response: 38Hz - 35kHz

Sensitivity ([email protected]): 90dB

Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms

Maximum SPL (dBA): 114.8

Power Handling (RMS): 125W

Recommended Amplifier Requirements (RMS): 40-125W

Bass Alignment: Dual Chamber, Bass reflex with differential tuning.

Twin HiVe®II port System

Tweeter Crossover Frequency: LF: 700Hz

MF/HF: 2.7kHz

Drive Unit Complement: 1 x 6" RST® Bass driver.

1 x 6" RST® Bass/Mid driver.

1 x 1" (25mm) C-CAM® gold dome tweeter

External Dimensions:

(H x W x D)

inc. plinth & feet 905 x 275 x 310 mm

(37 5/8 x 10 13/16 x 12 3/16 inch)

Individual Weight: 16.4 Kg (36.13 lb)

I think that you should go for the 3310I not just because of power which there is not much difference between the units but because of better quality parts, bigger power supply which translates to better dynamics, clarity and ultimately better surround envelopment sensation ( provided you do the correct calibration procedures).


Having a lot a lot of Features are great but better quality parts will give you better satisfaction. I bought a 4308 Denon precisely because of that. It has individual power supplies for each channel. since it was to be discontinued I bought it at a great price but the model has all the necessary goodies like Audysseys 8 position calibration, HBR decoding, WI-Fi internet access, power and quality. Aftermarket Denon's doawnloads put it up to date with dynamic EQ and etc...


So, the point is buy the best your money can buy. when I cheap out because of the extra cash I could have given I also stay with that feeling of insatisfaction until I am able to really get what I wanted. After learning that lesson I now wait before rushing in to buying something so that I can afford to really buy what I want. Of course the really high end stuff is still far away but in my reality what I have is what I really can afford and want.


All the best,


Michael
 

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There are strengths and weaknesses to each brands AVR offerings. To say Pioneer and Onkyo are better because of THX certification is rather crazy, and then to claim Pioneer's amp sections (in general) are better is just plain silly.


The 3310 shouldn't be on your list unless the networking features are important to you or you have the budget to not sweat the price difference. That and the power bump are the main upgrades, and your Energy's don't really need the power difference, nor is it really that big of a bump all things considered.


$400 is a lot in terms of AVR's. Unless you are the kind of person who buys one AVR every 10 years, you'd generally be better off with the 2310 and upgrading more frequently.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength /forum/post/18285757


Sitting Bull aka Todd Sauve, you should fully disclose that those are your comments. Additionally, citing your own opinions to "prove" your conclusion smacks of circular reasoning.


AJ

Yes, some of the comments were mine but they are 100% true and verified by the article's author, Mr. John E. Johnson. They are NOT, as you put it, my "own opinions," they are the FACTS as conclusively shown in the column. In addition, I have done NOTHING to hide my identity--I fully disclosed it in the comments section I referred to!


Moreover, there is nothing "circular" about any of the "reasoning." What the review "proved" was that the Denon 3310 fell flat on its face in trying to deliver wattage into a 4 ohm load, producing only 100 watts (and not across the entire audible frequency spectrum, either) before immediately going into fault mode.

Not one single Denon AVR, from the 3310 down to the 590, can be THX certified because their amps are FAR too weak.


I don't know why you are so bothered by what I wrote. Are you perhaps a now sour 3310 owner?
 

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As the author in that article so aptly points out, the 3310 is comparable to any AVR in it's price range, not too mention that an AVR would rarely need to output 50W, on average only 5W in fact. Additionally, Denon indicates their AVRs are better suited for 6ohm+ speakers, although they have been shown to easily power 4ohm speakers at "average" volume without going in to Protection Mode.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slare /forum/post/18286562


There are strengths and weaknesses to each brands AVR offerings. To say Pioneer and Onkyo are better because of THX certification is rather crazy, and then to claim Pioneer's amp sections (in general) are better is just plain silly.

Slare,


Please elaborate on what you are saying here about THX certification and the Pioneer amps not being better than the Denon's. You have left me mystified ...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie /forum/post/18287715


As the author in that article so aptly points out, the 3310 is comparable to any AVR in it's price range, not too mention that an AVR would rarely need to output 50W, on average only 5W in fact. Additionally, Denon indicates their AVRs are better suited for 6ohm+ speakers, although they have been shown to easily power 4ohm speakers at "average" volume without going in to Protection Mode.

What happens with an amp rated for 6 ohm performance only is that when it is compelled to push into a 4 ohm load it gets hotter than it was designed for. Over a period of time--difficult to say how long as every amp will likely differ--the amp gets weaker and weaker until it fails completely.


Moreover, 4 ohm speakers often have complex impedance characteristics, with loads falling substantially below 4 ohms at certain frequencies. This puts even more strain on the amps and power supplies.


In the case of the 3310, the article proved that even a momentary delivery of 100 watts into a 4 ohm load put the AVR into fault mode. That means it shut itself off instantly to avoid self destruction!


Thus not even Denon itself will assign its 3310 and lesser models with anything lower than 6 ohm rating.


As you pointed out, and as I also pointed out in the comments section of the above named article, you can limp along on 50 watt output, especially if you have a self-powered subwoofer.


But as the article's author also pointed out, there are times when substantial amounts of power are called for.


For instance, I was at a friend's house to watch the Super Bowl last month and during the game his brand new Sony AVR shut itself off completely and went into safe mode on at least six different occasions when a referee blew his whistle! We were astonished that a mere whistle being blown could shut the AVR down, but it did! We could only conclude that the whistle's frequency and amplitude was such that it demanded too much power from the amps, and at a low impedance load that it could not supply.


So why limp along on 50 watts and merely hope for the best when you can get a much better AVR than the Denon 3310 for a lot less money?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull /forum/post/18287616


Yes, some of the comments were mine but they are 100% true and verified by the article's author, Mr. John E. Johnson. They are NOT, as you put it, my "own opinions," they are the FACTS as conclusively shown in the column. In addition, I have done NOTHING to hide my identity--I fully disclosed it in the comments section I referred to!


Moreover, there is nothing "circular" about any of the "reasoning." What the review "proved" was that the Denon 3310 fell flat on its face in trying to deliver wattage into a 4 ohm load, producing only 100 watts (and not across the entire audible frequency spectrum, either) before immediately going into fault mode.

Not one single Denon AVR, from the 3310 down to the 590, can be THX certified because their amps are FAR too weak.


I don't know why you are so bothered by what I wrote. Are you perhaps a now sour 3310 owner?

Yes, you are guilty of circular reasoning. You sought to call attention to your comments on the other site. Your comments were by far the most negative; most other comments were quite moderate. And you sought to use your previously held negative beliefs in those comments as evidence to assert a negative conclusion in this thread. Your beliefs are not sufficient evidence for your believed conclusion. That is circular reasoning.


Next, if you are trying to power exotic speakers (and, yes, your Magnepans are exotic speakers) w/ a mid range AVR, then you are just being cheap. Get a high end AVR that is rated into an inefficient, 4 ohm load. Or add external amplification. If you cannot afford such, that is your problem, not Denon's problem. You act like a spurned lover simply because the 3310CI disappointed you, and you could not afford a more appropriate, higher end Denon AVR.


Now, if you are happy w/ an Onkyo, fine. More power to you -- pun intended. But Onkyo, too, has plenty of faults: inferior networking, video processing, GUI, et al. Not to mention, Onkyo AVRs are just downright unattractive. And those factors are deal breakers to others just as much as inordinate power is to you.


Finally, no, I do not own a 3310CI. I am interested in higher end AVRs and external amplification only. The 3310CI does not meet my needs, yet I do not disparage it, as it meets the needs of others.


AJ
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength /forum/post/18288061


Yes, you are guilty of circular reasoning. You sought to call attention to your comments on the other site. Your comments were by far the most negative; most other comments were quite moderate. And you sought to use your previously held negative beliefs in those comments as evidence to assert a negative conclusion in this thread. Your beliefs are not sufficient evidence for your believed conclusion. That is circular reasoning.


AJ

Let us stick to the pejorative portion of your comments.


How do you define "circular reasoning"?


According to this website http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/l...c-circular.htm it means:


"Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion. To say, “You should exercise because it’s good for you” is really saying, “You should exercise because you should exercise.”

I did no such thing. I cited the facts proved in the article referred to at "Secrets of Hi Fi" by Mr Johnson to reach a completely logical conclusion.


While you found them negative, I find them only assertive.


Furthermore, I did NOT call attention to only my comments at the other website, I told the reader to pay attention to the comments section--not just my own comments. In fact, here is PRECISELY what I wrote:


"Read the review of the 3310 here and pay special attention to the comments section at the end."

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/recei...-receiver.html


By the way, I bought a new AVR only 2 months ago and sincerely wanted to get the Denon 2310. But after reading Johnson's article I came to the only conclusion that was LOGICAL--no Denon from the 3310 down would be a wise investment considering their inability to power my 4 ohm speakers.


So I bought the Onkyo HT-RC 180, which is virtually the same as the Onkyo 807. I paid $775 for the 180, while the Denon 2310 was priced at $1000 and the 3310 at $1500! The Onkyo 180 is THX certified which means it can easily support 4 ohm loads, while neither of the Denons are so endowed.


So tell me, was my decision wise based upon the facts?


PS Last year's Denons were excellent powerhouses. I was quite disappointed by the deceptiveness of Denon in both its quality and marketing with this year's models.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for your input everyone.


I can come to the conclusion (from John Johnson's comments at hometheaterhifi.com and other sources) that the EASY way to measure a class A/B amplifier's performance is by it's weight. That is not to say that it is the only factor or that it guarantees good performance. But that is to say that if I am going to invest in an amplifier for the long haul - it should probably be HEAVY.


So from what I have gathered, I have decided that the AVR-1910 is plenty for my needs at this time - even if I upgrade to Monitor Audio Silver RX6 speakers - with one reservation, and that is the ABT-2010 video processor that is present in the AVR-2310. What benefit will this give me with regard to picture quality with DVD to 1080p scaling, 24-frame movies, or otherwise?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel /forum/post/18289340


Thanks for your input everyone.


I can come to the conclusion (from John Johnson's comments at hometheaterhifi.com and other sources) that the EASY way to measure a class A/B amplifier's performance is by it's weight. That is not to say that it is the only factor or that it guarantees good performance. But that is to say that if I am going to invest in an amplifier for the long haul - it should probably be HEAVY.


So from what I have gathered, I have decided that the AVR-1910 is plenty for my needs at this time - even if I upgrade to Monitor Audio Silver RX6 speakers - with one reservation, and that is the ABT-2010 video processor that is present in the AVR-2310. What benefit will this give me with regard to picture quality with DVD to 1080p scaling, 24-frame movies, or otherwise?

It depends on the size of your HDTV, assuming you don't use a projector. The 1910 should be able to give a good sharp picture with its upscaling chip for a 52 inch TV, or even a larger screen. In fact, most HDTVs have very good upscaling chips already built into them at the factory.


As for the 24 fps part of your question, try talking to the folks on the Denon 1910 thread. They can answer that one easily.
 

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Hello,

I would highly recommend a B-Stock Onkyo TX-SR876 for 829 (1800 MSRP) from Accessories4less.

It offers a stout amplifier section, THX Ultra 2 Plus Certification and Processing, Audyssey MultEQ XT, Reon Video Processing (truly outstanding), and much more.


The amplifier section is so much stronger that it would allow you to drive a wide array of Speakers with no concern of overload. At the MSRP, the TX-SR876 truly has no peers. At 829, it is a steal and well worth the extra expense.

Cheers,

AD
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
All things considered, I am going to go with the AVR-1910 - regardless of features, power, sound quality, video quality, etc. It will surely be enough for what I have currently and good enough to use with MA Silver RX6. In the future I will probably purchase something like the Emotiva UMC-1 / UPA-7 combo ($1398 retail


http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm
http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm


Thanks very much to everyone for your input - helped me out quite a lot.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull /forum/post/18288206

I did no such thing. I cited the facts proved in the article referred to at "Secrets of Hi Fi" by Mr Johnson to reach a completely logical conclusion.

Sitting Bull, you are a strong writer. I enjoyed reading your response. Good show! But you did use circular reasoning. This is a basic paraphrase of your argument:


"I find the amplifier performance of the 3310CI disappointing. Therefore, the 3310CI is disappointing."


That is circular reasoning, my friend. And your argument is so full of flaws as to be dismissible.


You assume that the 3310CI is not up to the task of driving your Magnepans, which are not simply 4 ohm resistors, though you have not actually tried this experiment. And, even if the 3310CI is truly not up to the task, you assume that others are concerned w/ driving inefficient 4 ohm magnetic planar speakers w/ this mid range AVR. Seriously, I like Magnepans and have considered MG 1.6s (now MG 1.7s) for my own system, but they are not representative of the speakers that a mid range AVR, Denon or otherwise, is going to drive.


You also assume that robust amplification is the end all, be all of AVRs. That may be true for you. But, for other buyers/users, they may be more concerned w/ networking, video performance, ergonomics, et al. And they can add more robust external amplification, if so desired.


Additionally, you assume that THX certification (as in other AVRs) is a good litmus test. It once meant something, but it has been sliced, diced, and qualified so much as to be almost meaningless. People familiar w/ the Oppo/Lexicon Blu-ray player debacle may tell you that THX certification has become that last descriptor -- meaningless.


Finally, you assume that Denon actually seeks to deceive buyers/users. Just because previous generation mid range Denon AVRs had the ancillary capability to drive inefficient 4 ohm loads does not mean that current generation mid range Denon AVRs must maintain that ancillary capability, particularly if that capability means little to users at large (see your first assumption above).


So, yes, you may logically (hastily? presumptively?) conclude that the 3310CI is not a good choice to drive your speakers. But to conclude that the 3310CI (or below) is generally not a good choice is just plain farce. You do not speak for everyone. Others have wildly different priorities.


AJ
 
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