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You kinda are, though... otherwise you wouldn't be so incredulous.
Don't be obtuse. I said nothing of the sort. And I'm incredulous because I'm reading goofy BS written by people trying to make themselves feel better about their spending choices rather than discuss the merrits of the equipment. This isn't some sort of therapy session thread for people's spending habits. I ask for specifics and get back theory and tall tales without any sort of detail.

Where did I say speaker XYZ is better because it costs more? I didn't. Not at all. You guys all have a preconceived idea that professionals in the industry push that crap on you and thus, are hyper sensitive bigots about it. I never, in the history of being on this forum, have said a speaker is better just because it costs more. If you prove me wrong, I'll send you a $1,400 pair of tower speakers new in box for free... god, and anyone else reading this, as my witness. Happy hunting.
 

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Which ones? This type of claim has been made by 3 or 4 different people in this thread, yet none of them can produce an actual account of what the equipment was, what was being listened to, the room, where.... etc. etc.

I'm sure many would love to know the details rather than just these incredibly broad, open generalizations. This has gotten comical.

EDIT: In no way, shape, or form am I an advocate of something being better because it costs more. That is not what I have said in this thread at all. I think that in the A/V industry, the middle has gotten incredibly good and has a wide variety of great products in it. But, it's the unsubstantiated, no detail claims where I'm thinking.. WTF are you talking about?!
B&W Signature Diamond

B&W 803D

Ive auditioned both of these and the hsu mentioned as well as the HTD level 3 walk ALL OVER them both the hsu and the htd were setup properly with a very good sub
the ancillary equipment is totally not relevant
 

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Where did I say speaker XYZ is better because it costs more?
You've scoffed a few times at the suggestion that the HSUs + subs are better than the B&Ws.
 

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Which ones? This type of claim has been made by 3 or 4 different people in this thread, yet none of them can produce an actual account of what the equipment was, what was being listened to, the room, where.... etc. etc.

I'm sure many would love to know the details rather than just these incredibly broad, open generalizations. This has gotten comical.

EDIT: In no way, shape, or form am I an advocate of something being better because it costs more. That is not what I have said in this thread at all. I think that in the A/V industry, the middle has gotten incredibly good and has a wide variety of great products in it. But, it's the unsubstantiated, no detail claims where I'm thinking.. WTF are you talking about?!
Here's a good thread where Dr. Toole and Sean Olive chime in regarding the Infinity Primus 360 tower beating towers costing many times more than it. It has everything to do with how it measures and nothing to do with cost. The Primus towers were 500 and the B&W 802N was $8,000 if I recall correctly.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2914582-b-w-802n-vs-cheaper-alternatives-please-respond-floyd-toole-sean-olive.html

Also the famous study where they show how the formula was created to correlate subjective preference to measurements says that 99% of speaker preference is explained through their Spinorama measurement.

A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part II - Development of the Model

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=12847
 

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Which ones? This type of claim has been made by 3 or 4 different people in this thread, yet none of them can produce an actual account of what the equipment was, what was being listened to, the room, where.... etc. etc.

I'm sure many would love to know the details rather than just these incredibly broad, open generalizations. This has gotten comical.

EDIT: In no way, shape, or form am I an advocate of something being better because it costs more. That is not what I have said in this thread at all. I think that in the A/V industry, the middle has gotten incredibly good and has a wide variety of great products in it. But, it's the unsubstantiated, no detail claims where I'm thinking.. WTF are you talking about?!
ok , i'll play.. not on the same level , but a comparable % difference .. ascend cbm170's ($300)sound better (to me ) than ML motion 15's($700) or b&w600 or 700 series( whatever bb is selling them for)books;):)...edit: and the measurements back me up...
 

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B&W Signature Diamond

B&W 803D

Ive auditioned both of these and the hsu mentioned as well as the HTD level 3 walk ALL OVER them both the hsu and the htd were setup properly with a very good sub
the ancillary equipment is totally not relevant
Define auditioned, please? Same room? Same source? Same Material?

Or, did you go into a stereo shop and have a listen? Does that really count as putting the speakers through the paces and actually A/Bing them together and against each other? Audible memory is so so short. Come on, man.

The ancillary equipment absolutely matters. This is getting hilarious. On a forum where there are 1000s of threads and posts discussing measurements and testing methods you come in and say... Nahhhhh, "Walks all over". Nothing more needed. Just, "Walks all over". Yep, good enough. Convinced me with that break down. I feel much more educated now.

BTW, I detest most B&W speakers (their sound just isn't for me) and have been trying to almost give away a pair of CM1 & Matching Center a client owned for the last year. No takers because I don't have the heart to actually put them off on anyone.

Hey, look, in all seriousness, if you feel that way, then that's what it is to you. 20 years doing this for a living and I would venture to say you are a thimble of sand compared to an entire beach on that, but it is what it is.
 

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this is a very weird thread and hilarious that people say price means nothing. about two people ive read so far in the entire thread that don't have mental problems and clearly deal with audio professionally, lol.
 

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Here's a good thread where Dr. Toole and Sean Olive chime in regarding the Infinity Primus 360 tower beating towers costing many times more than it. It has everything to do with how it measures and nothing to do with cost. The Primus towers were 500 and the B&W 802N was $8,000 if I recall correctly.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2914582-b-w-802n-vs-cheaper-alternatives-please-respond-floyd-toole-sean-olive.html

Also the famous study where they show how the formula was created to correlate subjective preference to measurements says that 99% of speaker preference is explained through their Spinorama measurement.

A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part II - Development of the Model

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=12847
Look, I absolutely, positively understand and can agree that lower cost stuff can sound as good or better than higher priced stuff - typicaly not 25x higher stuff, but it can happen... I've seen a lot of over priced BS in my career (looking at you, projector market). Taking this away from speakers for a moment, the C8 Corvette is an incredible example of this. So are a lot of Mustangs or the Camaro ZL1. I in no way, shape, or form believe that higher cost always = better. No way.

As far as testing methods of Harman, I understand their testing methods and am well studied on it. However, not every speaker they make is gold. No company has the perfect speaker manufacturing methods down. As a Harman dealer, I do think their stuff is killer. However, I'm always leery of relying on data like that put out in that manner due to several factors. I don't care much for Kool aid. I also question a lot of speaker tests and anecdotal recounts and testimonies. Even blind ones.

As someone pointed out here earlier, I believe, at low volumes a lot of things sound good! At certain seating distances a lot of things sound good. When you start to push the speaker, is one going to tap out before another? I am also a Klipsch dealer. The new RP stuff is excellent at low to medium volumes - some of the finest speakers I have ever heard at what I would call light to normal levels, as are the matching in walls. But, when pushed way up there, they I think they can brutalize you.

Which is all I was saying earlier. The application matters. All of it. The entire chain of how you will be using the speaker matters. Someone and I went round and round about the room and he quoted Dr Toole and said it didn't matter. Yes, it does. It does in this sense: Larger room tends to = larger screen. larger screen tends to = further seating distance. Further seating distance tends to = pushing a speaker harder (especially the high frequencies). Etc. etc. With more expensive speakers, often times - many many times - the cabinet can become the most expensive part of the speaker form a manufacturing and materials cost. This more inert cabinet helps reduce ringing and distortion at high levels of volume. At medium or low volume, you might never hear a difference between a mid-fi speaker and a "Hi-Fi" model. Certainly not enough to justify a huge price jump.

Anyway, I am a HUGE supporter of you guys on the forum in the sense of appreciating you all loving A/V so much. Despite what Zorba says, I am not here for any financial or professional gain - no one has proven otherwise in the years I've been here. I learn a lot from you all and appreciate it - even if we get into savage debates. However, there is a ton of horrific information given out by hobbyists AND professionals alike and if someone googles topics, they find these forums and read and read. I feel bad for them. I talk to people all the time who are confused by this stuff and just go down the rabbit hole. I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. It is not good for regular consumers out there who may never post here, but read through your threads to get awful info or poor explanations.
 

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Which is all I was saying earlier. The application matters. All of it. The entire chain of how you will be using the speaker matters. Someone and I went round and round about the room and he quoted Dr Toole and said it didn't matter. Yes, it does. It does in this sense: Larger room tends to = larger screen. larger screen tends to = further seating distance. Further seating distance tends to = pushing a speaker harder (especially the high frequencies). Etc. etc. With more expensive speakers, often times - many many times - the cabinet can become the most expensive part of the speaker form a manufacturing and materials cost. This more inert cabinet helps reduce ringing and distortion at high levels of volume. At medium or low volume, you might never hear a difference between a mid-fi speaker and a "Hi-Fi" model. Certainly not enough to justify a huge price jump.
I'm sure you're talking about me, the study I referred to compared 4 rooms of different sizes, from small to large. The same speakers were preferred in the same order in every room. Sorry but I think most people believe the conclusions from an actual study with many listeners over a random person's opinion on the internet.

And by the way, "pushing a speaker harder" is much harder on the low frequencies, not the highs, you can check distortion measurements on Soundstage to see that is true.
 

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Don't be obtuse. I said nothing of the sort. And I'm incredulous because I'm reading goofy BS written by people trying to make themselves feel better about their spending choices rather than discuss the merrits of the equipment. This isn't some sort of therapy session thread for people's spending habits. I ask for specifics and get back theory and tall tales without any sort of detail.

Where did I say speaker XYZ is better because it costs more? I didn't. Not at all. You guys all have a preconceived idea that professionals in the industry push that crap on you and thus, are hyper sensitive bigots about it. I never, in the history of being on this forum, have said a speaker is better just because it costs more. If you prove me wrong, I'll send you a $1,400 pair of tower speakers new in box for free... god, and anyone else reading this, as my witness. Happy hunting.
How insulting can you get. A $500 pair of bookshelfs and a $900 sub is more appropriate.
 

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Don't be obtuse. I said nothing of the sort. And I'm incredulous because I'm reading goofy BS written by people trying to make themselves feel better about their spending choices rather than discuss the merrits of the equipment. This isn't some sort of therapy session thread for people's spending habits. I ask for specifics and get back theory and tall tales without any sort of detail.

Where did I say speaker XYZ is better because it costs more? I didn't. Not at all. You guys all have a preconceived idea that professionals in the industry push that crap on you and thus, are hyper sensitive bigots about it. I never, in the history of being on this forum, have said a speaker is better just because it costs more. If you prove me wrong, I'll send you a $1,400 pair of tower speakers new in box for free... god, and anyone else reading this, as my witness. Happy hunting.
How insulting can you get. A $500 pair of bookshelfs and a $900 sub is more appropriate.
Ahahahaha! Now THIS is a great and appropriate comment.

Ok, deal. A $500 pair of book shelf models and a $900 sub.
 

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Which is all I was saying earlier. The application matters. All of it. The entire chain of how you will be using the speaker matters. Someone and I went round and round about the room and he quoted Dr Toole and said it didn't matter. Yes, it does. It does in this sense: Larger room tends to = larger screen. larger screen tends to = further seating distance. Further seating distance tends to = pushing a speaker harder (especially the high frequencies). Etc. etc. With more expensive speakers, often times - many many times - the cabinet can become the most expensive part of the speaker form a manufacturing and materials cost. This more inert cabinet helps reduce ringing and distortion at high levels of volume. At medium or low volume, you might never hear a difference between a mid-fi speaker and a "Hi-Fi" model. Certainly not enough to justify a huge price jump.
I'm sure you're talking about me, the study I referred to compared 4 rooms of different sizes, from small to large. The same speakers were preferred in the same order in every room. Sorry but I think most people believe the conclusions from an actual study with many listeners over a random person's opinion on the internet.

And by the way, "pushing a speaker harder" is much harder on the low frequencies, not the highs, you can check distortion measurements on Soundstage to see that is true.
Interesting. Somebody better send that study to all of those commercial cinemas out there all they need are a pair if book shelf speakers and a sub.

Seriously, if you think a tower with more drivers from speaker product series "A" won't play down to 80hz louder and cleaner in a larger space than a bookshelf speaker from the same series, I don't know what to tell you. *TYPICALLY*

That doesn't mean tower speakers are be all end all products for theater use. NOT AT ALL. Strictly speaking multi channel audio, I would take a great pair of A or B grade monitors over a pair of B or C grade towers.

My favorite system I do uses large monitors (or in walls) with dual 6 1/2" drivers and a single 1" tweeter and hits THX reference levels, ruler flat, in an 18,000 cubic foot room - up to 32 seats. Best system I've ever heard or installed.... It starts at $20,000 for 5.1 and goes up to $45,000ish for ATMOS. That kind of performance is special and takes a tremendous amount of engineering and high performance material. But, it IS a bookshelf speaker system.

I understand the desire for towers, too, though. It's fun to try and get the most out of pure 2 channel and blending a sub into bookshelf speakers properly can be tough. Besides that, I can't be the only one with a 7 year old and a rowdy puppy. I would never put a bookshelf on a stand around them. Although, I love how Revel and now their new HDI line have stands specific for their monitor models that screw into the base of the speaker. Still, a bit top heavy if you have a concern of knocking them over.

I rotate through a TON of gear I've amassed in my career. And, due to the nature of my job, I have more stereo stuff than I can possibly use in the rooms of my house. I rotate gear around like crazy, playing around and experimenting.

I LOVE my Hersey 4s and Phase Technology subwoofer. That is a really fun system for certain things. I also love my Rwvel F228Be for different reasons and on and on.

I just think the kid was being lead astray for the wrong reasons. I think his quest is goofy, which is why I didn't comment much on it. Because no way he can get a good enough deal on quality used towers AND cover shipping with his $1,000 - so he is limited to used near him and how the F do we know what that holds? Sorry, OP Kid, but you should surf through accessories4less or Crutcjfueld to find some clearance stuff with free shipping.

Dude, for $700 and free shipping get a pair of these (originally $1,400 MSRP) from Crutchfield: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-iDsIoq0u2PZ/p_701D590SBA/Jamo-D-590-50th-Anniversary-Special-Edition-Black-Ash.html?XVINQ=GLX&awkw=681027821917&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=327210390139&awdv=m&awug=9015746&gclid=CjwKCAiA1fnxBRBBEiwAVUouUnDKaBhbApj1YpWlnfz-8ef99SeLtfi-0HqeUGQDgJdsB2h9et0WgxoC0kYQAvD_BwE

^ I have 3 pair laying around in boxes, but heard them at a trade show and thought they were killer! There is my sub $1,000 speaker recommendation.
 

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Interesting. Somebody better send that study to all of those commercial cinemas out there all they need are a pair if book shelf speakers and a sub.

Seriously, if you think a tower with more drivers from speaker product series "A" won't play down to 80hz louder and cleaner in a larger space than a bookshelf speaker from the same series, I don't know what to tell you. *TYPICALLY
Your comments repeatedly show a fundamental lack of understanding of the industry you claim to an expert in. The Harman studies typically compare similar speakers and have shown the Spinorama is what matters regarding preference. This means you compare bookshelf speakers to each other, towers to each other and cinema speakers to each other. It's not exactly a gotcha to say that a small bookshelf speaker can't compare to a cinema speaker with an 18" woofer in a movie theater....
 

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Which ones? This type of claim has been made by 3 or 4 different people in this thread, yet none of them can produce an actual account of what the equipment was, what was being listened to, the room, where.... etc. etc.

I'm sure many would love to know the details rather than just these incredibly broad, open generalizations. This has gotten comical.

EDIT: In no way, shape, or form am I an advocate of something being better because it costs more. That is not what I have said in this thread at all. I think that in the A/V industry, the middle has gotten incredibly good and has a wide variety of great products in it. But, it's the unsubstantiated, no detail claims where I'm thinking.. WTF are you talking about?!
Which ones? I literally was just speaking about HTD speakers.... Rather than being 1200 a pair they're 1k per pair... Even better. Still, it's a point i was making. Even speakers costing 25x more won't give you better sound... At that point it's fit, finish and bragging rights....

I've had 10,000 pair of Paradigm Personas side by side with the HTD L3 and it was laughable. Why anyone would spend 9k extra for literally nothing but appearance, blows my mind. The sound sure wasn't worth 10k. Paradigm had better bass, that's it. The sound quality of the HTD L3s was preferred by myself, my wife, and 6 other individuals. Same treated room, Same dedicated amp, etc....

Magnolia BB carries nice speakers but as mentioned before, they're not really worth it unless on clearance as compared to ID companies that Give same or better quality for much less without a middle man.
 

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The Cult of Toole is not the be-all and end-all. He is not the only audio engineer that designs good speakers. To me, your vaunted "spins" are nothing more than a useful tool in searching for speakers.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the Harman fanbois blathering on in every thread, as if no other speaker can possibly be as good as their favourite company's speakers. To be honest, they are sounding more and more like shills. We have seen that before by other companies - to their detriment., IMHO. That has actually driven me AWAY from that company;s products.


I appreciate what the OP is trying to do, which is finding the best (preferably used) speakers for his budget, while trying to assess the best discount. I just don't think that he was aware of the excellent NIB speakers that have been suggested.
 
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Interesting. Somebody better send that study to all of those commercial cinemas out there all they need are a pair if book shelf speakers and a sub.

Seriously, if you think a tower with more drivers from speaker product series "A" won't play down to 80hz louder and cleaner in a larger space than a bookshelf speaker from the same series, I don't know what to tell you. *TYPICALLY
Your comments repeatedly show a fundamental lack of understanding of the industry you claim to an expert in. The Harman studies typically compare similar speakers and have shown the Spinorama is what matters regarding preference. This means you compare bookshelf speakers to each other, towers to each other and cinema speakers to each other. It's not exactly a gotcha to say that a small bookshelf speaker can't compare to a cinema speaker with an 18" woofer in a movie theater....
And you seem to fundamentally forget when you compared a bookshelf to a much larger floorstanding speaker earlier in this very thread, which is where, when, and why I spoke up.

You keep moving the goal line in an attempt to be right and it isn't going to happen. I don't understand your aversion to this stuff other than you have a dying need to not be wrong.

In caps so it is not missed...
EARLY ON IN THIS THREAD YOU COMPARED A BOOKSHELF SPEAKER'S CAPABILITIES TO A LARGER TOWER. I SAID THAT WAS NOT CORRECT IN A LOT OF WAYS AND PROCEEDED TO LIST OUT THOSE WAYS AND WHY. YOU TOOK EXCEPTION TO THAT AND NOW, WHEN GIVEN REASON AFTER REASON WHY YOUR STATEMENT WAS MISLEADING AND INCORRECT, YOU ARE CHANGING WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING FOR THE 3RD OR 4TH TIME. WHY?

It's interesting to me how buzzwords go around the forums and last a year or so. Triad was a big deal when their national sales manager was on here pimping it, dynamics was a real big thing (when a new company was on the forums selling that concept), then sensitivity, now spinorama... which virtually nobody spoke of until that thread. It's just hearing/reading and parroting without real knowledge gained from doing. Not that spinorama data is wrong, but there is more to a designing a speaker system than that.

I appreciate and respect greatly the work done at Harman with their testing. It's an incredible group working out there and their products are phenominal. They recommend larger speakers in systems I design ALL THE TIME. They have a design service I have consulted with on projects and they do not go to the small bookshelf models for most of these systems. It is larger, multi driver in walls or towers unless the room is smaller. They want to move air and need the surface area of the larger speakers to do it.

I've worked with this stuff every day for a living the past 20 years and work with Harman almost weekly. It is ok to question me, tell me I'm wrong and why, etc. but please provide actual knowledge and detail on it. Don't just parrot stuff at me. And, please, for the love... stop moving the goal line on what you and I were discussing. I'm honestly trying to understand where you're coming from, but it has become so different than what I had replied to, I am not sure it's even the same conversation.
 
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