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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As this appears to be the largest Forum with HD content, I am pleading for other 6000 owners to help me out.


I just had my receiver replaced because I was experiencing very strange picture motion and the new one does the exact same thing, so I need to see if other 6000 receivers are doing this.


The best channel to see this effect clearly and easily is Ch 163, VH1 Classic. Before you say, yeah, the channel sucks, sure it does, but hear me out. Watch the channel for awhile. What you (hopefully) will see is a very inconsistent picture image. Jimi Hendrix's Fro will move around on his head. Mic stands will move when they are still. Closeups of peoples face will show their eyes moving in differnt directions and their face contorting like silly putty.


Don't watch movement, watch the background and static objects, especially objects that are of a solid or high contrast as compared to their surroundings.


I see this effect on OTA channels as well, so it MUST be my receiver (or an inherent problem with the 6000 itself). I have seen it on HBO and SHO HD channels with a 4:3 upconvert program, but have not yet seen it on a 1080i show. I also haven't seen it on a very good OTA SD channel such as our local UPN in Portland, OR.


Please look hard at your 6000 picture and post here if you see what I am experiencing. If I don't get any responses here, I am going to persue getting another receiver.


Please don't post a generic reply about how Dish PQ sucks, I just want posts about this picture anomalie.


Thanks.


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I have not seen this. I will check tonight on my system. What is your receive signal strength? Does it waiver considerably? You may have a screen refresh rate problem where portions of the previous screen are still apparent on the picture being displayed.

Anyone else?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
My signal strength is good. I talked to Tech Support for over an hour and we checked all the transponders and strength was good. He told me that some of the programs I am having problems on are on the strongest (105+) signal strength.




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You failed to mention wether you are upconverting the VH1 channel or feeding it out in SD. There will be artifacts when converting the standard programming to the HD outputs. The best bet is to use a high quality external processor on the SD outputs for all standard programming and then use the HD output when viewing HD programming, either local or sat. I have a 6000 and have the 8-VSB module for local and have never seen what you describe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It doesn't matter if I am viewing in SD or HD. I mainly watch in SD as I don't have a HD set yet. I veiw HD on my computer monitor, which, when sitting 18" away looks big screen.




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I've never seen this on my 6000. I'm running on a 56" HDTV and have an excellent image.


You haven't said how your 6000 is connected to your TV... Component? S-Video? Composite (horrors)? Direct or through a receiver? Have you tried another type of receiver through the same inputs? Could be your TV sync is just slightly off.


If the problem is the same when connected to your computer monitor, another problem might be RF interference from a nearby device (the computer?). This could easily cause a shimmering image. Try moving the receiver and also try different interconnect cables.


[This message has been edited by LKupersmith (edited 08-03-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Marissadad:
Jimi Hendrix's Fro will move around on his head. Mic stands will move when they are still. Closeups of peoples face will show their eyes moving in differnt directions and their face contorting like silly putty.
Are you sure this isn't just an effect from the 'shrooms you took?
 

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I'm surprised nobody has said yet that this is in fact normal. I've seen this effect, too - not often, but occasionally. Where I've noticed it is on black and white footage i.e. on History Channel and once on the "Alan Partridge" show on BBC America. It looks weird as heck, I agree, but it is apparantly normal. I've read an explanation about this in other posts but don't think I can describe it very well here, sorry. Perhaps a bit of searching will find more information. What I recall reading was that parts of a digital still background can appear to "float" because in digital compression transmission the background information isn't refreshed with each frame but repeated, and slight movement can occur due to that. The explanation I read elsewhere was better than this but this is the best I can recall offhand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have finally gotten to the bottom of this issue...it is Dish Networks crappy compression scheme. I went to my buddies house today and viewed his PVR 501 on a 36" WEGA and he has the same weird effects, though I think the 6000 I have does it a bit worse.


He had never noticed it before either, but after I pointed out what to look for, he noticed it too. With the PVR 501 we were able to back up a few seconds and repeat what we just saw and sure enough, the effects played back every time we looked at it.


So DISH, you need to quit overcrompressing programs or get rid of the statistical multiplexing and devote a minimum bandwidth to each channel.


For those of you who can't see it, look harder. Put on Discovery Wings or VH1 Classic and you can't miss it. Today we saw a shot of the crowd from on stage in a video on VH1 Classic and the whole audience was "floating" around in place, lights were moving and microphones and their stands were moving on their own. My buddy is finally convinced that I am not eating 'shrooms' as dagman proposed, though I wish I could say I was!


I consider the case closed. Thank you all for your responses and may you not see the effects I am because once you notice it, your Dish watching days are ruined forever.




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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
You haven't said how your 6000 is connected to your TV... Component? S-Video? Composite (horrors)? Direct or through a receiver?
HORRORS! Yes, I am watching SD material through composite inputs on a 27" TV (that's the best it has, unfortunately). I have tried direct from the 6000 to the TV and it makes no difference.


My computer monitor is connected via the RGB connector. As stated originally, I can record the image onto VHS and play it back elsewhere and the effect is there on a totally different setup, so the bad image is coming from the 6000.

Quote:
Have you tried another type of receiver through the same inputs? Could be your TV sync is just slightly off.
I am going over to a coworkers house today to view his channels, he has a PVR 501. If I don't see the effects on his setup, I am going to put his receiver on my setup and see if I can duplicate the 6000's output. I will also try taking my 6000 to his house and see what happens. He has a 36" WEGA and I can try the composite and S-video on his.


I wish I knew someone that had a 6000 and a HD set so I could plug it in direct to their system and try it out. Any volunteers in the Portland area?

Quote:
If the problem is the same when connected to your computer monitor, another problem might be RF interference from a nearby device (the computer?).
I have used an extender cable to get my monitor away from the computer (about 15') and it still does it.


One other thing I tried last night was running a cable direct from my Dish 500 to the receiver and bypassing the switch 21 and the diplexers for the antenna. It didn't seem to make any difference. I have read where other's swear at diplexers saying they interfere, but in my case it didn't make any difference.


Another channel that is very obvious is Discovery Wings, I darn near get motion sick watching it.





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Don't feel badly. I've seen this effect for years on DTV. I called it the "floating face phenomena". It's very distracting and just proves how much the small dish pictures have deteriorated. When I first became a DTV subscriber (and they didn't have 3,456 channels) I never saw this. Probably just a matter of time before they began to do the same thing with HD as they squeeze another 10,000 channels out of one transponder.
 

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Finally, someone else has experienced this. I have a DISH 500 and recently bought a Hitachi 43" HD-ready TV. I never noticed it with the 27" Trinitron. When I tried to show it off, my Son asked was was wrong with the picture. There were the "morphing" images on the faces and other areas...yes, it was like an acid flashback (giving my age and past away). I suspected it was DISH's compression technology and called tech support. All the person could say was that a larger picture will show more blemishes...but this? Anyone know how it can be fixed?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Marissadad:
I see this effect on OTA channels as well, so it MUST be my receiver (or an inherent problem with the 6000 itself).
You won't see it in OTA because there is no compression. This is why I watch as much programming from OTA as I can. The Dish locals/cheap channels look like crap. Maybe the new satellite later this year will help.




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"Obstacles are what you see when you lose sight of your goals"
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Quote:
You won't see it in OTA because there is no compression. This is why I watch as much programming from OTA as I can.
You would think not, but I DO see it on almost EVERY Standard Definition channel. Our local PBS is horrible, worse than any of the Dish channels when it comes to this effect I am describing. It must not be compression, it must be something in the way digital signals are refreshed or something.


Any engineers want to help out?


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I wonder if this has anything to do with something I observed while watching FOX SPORT (WORLD / SPANISH). When the the view is high from the stadium and the camera is going sideways behind the ball/players, sometimes you can see the white lines in the field break in pieces, the players look fine but the lining in the field is all broken.

The weird thing is that not all channels that show soccer exhibit the behavior.


I have a model 4000 upgraded to dish500 and an ancient 27' Sony TV. I've planning to buy a 6000 or a PVR and upgrade to a bigger monitor. Now I wonder if I should wait a little longer.


I read in Widescreen Review mag. that the most compressed channels are children/kid oriented channels, that seems to be consistent with VH1, international programming perhaps, even PBS.
 

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I've noticed this many a time on my 6000. I think it's become worse since Dish started running the AT150 Free Preview. I believe that the frame rate for the luminance information is higher than the frame rate for the chroma information, leading to the mis-match or shimmering. I don't notice the compression artifacts as much on my HRM100, but it's hooked up to a different set.


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OTA is compressed

Just not as much

PBS started doing that years ago and yes sometimes the bandwidth is set too low

It is noticeable in the "How to" shows

Watch "victory Garden" and watch the trees in the background

The worst part is when a local station has to edit the material before it airs {i.e. Promos}

They get a double hit


Groooooovvvvvvvy


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