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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm begging for some help here! I really really want to like FP. I LOVE the idea of a 100" screen and a digital projector that doesn't require constant maintainence and calibration and never burns in.


But I don't have $10,000 to burn on a TV.


So I'm looking at the less expensive (ie. less than $6000) LCD and DLP FPs.


Now, I want 16:9 native ratio and full HD resolution, so right away, my choices become limited.


So here's the thing. I've only been able to see the Sony HS10 and the Sanyo Z1 so far (not that many FPs set up in dealers here in Vancouver, BC, Canada).


Now the HS10 impressed me with the fact that the sharpness and clarity were very high and it didn't produce nearly any ghosting (a tough feat for an LCD). The Z1, with it's lower resolution didn't make the cut.


But the HS10 left me most UNimpressed with how dim the overall image was and how bland and dull the colours were. Now this just doesn't make sense to me because people here keep saying how good the colours are and how the brightness of the HS10 is quite acceptable.


Now granted, I wasn't in a totally pitch black room, but you compare the brightness of the HS10 with any RPTV and it's just very very dim. When I watch a scene with bright snow, I want it to look bright, the way it does in a movie theater or on a RPTV, but the HS10 looked very dim.


So I'm just asking, was there something really wrong with what I saw or are the FPs just a LOT dimmer and the colours more faded?


If it's just the nature of FP that the image will always be dim and the colours week, then I guess I'm just really not interested. It's just that I keep hearing about how great some of these lower priced projectors are and it has me thinking that I've really just not seen them the right way.


And by the by, I'm mostly interested in LCD. Not just because of price, but mainly because even though I don't really see the rainbow effect, I'd feel bad for any of my guest who do.


Thing is, if DLP can give me the bright, sharp and colourful picture that I want, them I'm more than willing to let my guests suffer :p


So help me out and tell me that I should be able to get a FP that will give me a nice, bright, colourful picture, or help me out and confirm that any FP will always look dim, dull and lacking contrast.


Thanks,

Rob
 

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I have a Panny L300U, and white sceens are WHITE, quite amazing really.. i'm so impressed with everything. And its even set on LOW mode!


What you need to consider is what it was projected on, and how dark it was.


I made my own screen outta blackout cloth and a wooden frame and staped the edges tight. (
And I have no problems with brightness or color (F-Zero in Widescreen Progressive is just.. well, its really really nice!)


You can also adjust the settings, but since its just a big investment, you might want to considering buying from a site with no restocking fee.


The biggest problem you might have with FP's are black colors. Simply but black levels won't be as good as a CRT TV. Other then that :cool:
 

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I've had about 5 people aside from myself watch my X1 and none of us saw rainbows. As long as you don't mention it they probably won't notice any. Also, the X1 has a bright and very colorful picture.
 

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Whites really shouldn't be a problem. It's black that usually is difficult.


If you can spend up to $6000 you have a lot more choices than those of us that want to keep it under $1500. I hope you are browing the $5000+ forum as well.
 

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Sounds like an HS20 with a Da-Lite High Power screen might be something for you to look into. If you want to order one, you can try it out on my 96" wide or 116" wide High Power screens :) (I'm just north of Seattle).


--Darin
 

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Rob,

Sorry to hear your fate. As you may have guessed members in this area of the forum are FP devotees. By limiting yourself to 16x9 PJs you do yourself a major disservice. Too many outstanding units are 4x3.

You really need to see more. There's good reason why we owners of our FPs let our RPTVs collect dust.
 

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Rob,



Check out this screenshot from an X1 (with a large florescent light shining near the screen) on a light tan/brown screen. Any graininess is caused by low light conditions and low resolution. Check it out:


Hey, I haven't seen LCD, but I have a DLP and it's colors are quite vivid. Click on the "Gallery" above my name to see a screenshot. Keep in mind that the actual image is MUCH better and the florescent light is right near the screen (it usually washed images out badly), but it turned out pretty good.


It's from an Infocus X1 DLP ($999) projected onto a light tan/brown screen. Let me know what you think. I found a link, so you can just click the link below (any graininess is caused by the camera, because of low light):

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...t=1&thecat=508
 

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Bob - you have to understand that with FP ANY ambient light is going to wash out the image drastically. So when you mention that you saw the HS10 without good light control, there's your problem. As Darin mentioned, a high contrast screen will help, but without good light control, you're not going to like the picture regardless. It's just not what FP was designed for.


As for the colors on the HS10, I was also disappointed when I first got mine. I thought too that LCD colors should really be vivid. The first change I made was changing the default from auto to NTSC 4.(something). This initially made a surprising difference.


But the biggest difference was changing the RGB values according to some of the postings on this board, and then getting the CC40R filter. Now the color pop is off the charts and the colors also look very accurate. The HS10 is unfortunately far from its best out of the box.


As far as dimness goes, either you were looking at a unit with an old, ready to replace lamp, or there was too much ambient light. I'd also strongly recommend waiting for the HS20, but keep in mind that if you really want the theater experience you're going to have to be able to eliminate as much ambient light as possible in your "theater room".
 

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I have the Z1 and it si plenty bright and the colours are rich looking. There is also no ghosting ro anything like that. I don't know about the problems you saw with it or the HS10 but they are not LCD/projector issues. They are set up issues. UNless of course you are trying to compare these FPs to a direct view set in terms of brightness but that is just insane to do.


IMO, FPs give the best representation of movies out there.
 

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Rob,

Like others, I wasn't overly impressed with the colors of my HS10 when I first got it. Initially, it was connected via S-video cables (which an amazingly large number of retailers do). When I switched to component cables the difference was staggering. Not only was the picture clearer, but the colors seemed to jump off the screen (compared to the S-video). Well, maybe that's an exaggeration (why not, everyone else does). The colors did improve fairly dramatically, though. Then I calibrated it with the Smart III system and the colors got even better. Finally, I picked up the Bravo D1 DVD player with DVI connection and my picture on DVDs is 98% as good as the $10K+ projectors (and I have looked at a lot of them!)

Keep in mind that this is not a plug-and-play hobby. You have to do some tweaking to get the most out of it. Could I have purchased one of the $10K+ projectors? Yes, probably, but why should I. The pj technology is changing so fast and dramatically right now that it just doesn't make sense (unless you have money to burn.) I figure that in 2 or 3 years I will want to replace my HS10 with newer technology which will be better than today's best at a price much lower than today's. Meanwhile, I've got an excellent HT experience without throwing away precious greenbacks.'

The HS10 is one of the least expensive pieces of my HT system but it holds its own.


BTW, there is no way I would purchase a 4x3 projector. Most of my use is with DVDs and HDTV. I looked at the X1 and on my 115" screen the HS10 looks easily twice as sharp and crisp as the X1 (IMHO). AND... no one who has seen my HT set-up has ever complained about rainbows or headaches (except when the 4K watt sound system is cranked up to reference volume) ;-)


Finally, if you've got a little time to wait, get the HS20. If I were buying today, that's what I would do. Don't wait for the perfect pj to come along or you will miss out on the entire HT experience altogether. Waiting for a few months, though, may be worth it. If fact, if you want, I'll sell you my HS10 and I'll get the HS20 for myself. :D
 

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I'll agree with my fellow HS10 owners that it needs good light control and tweaking helps immensely. Also I believe LCDs are generally better with color saturation, so I don't think DLP is going to get you anything there. If light control is a problem, then you could investigate the high power screen darin suggested, or look at a brighter PJ like the PLV70, or perhaps something else more recent that is similar. The HS20 is suppose to be brighter and doesn't require the CC40R filter to help the colors, so that could be a good option.
 

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I think what you need is a high contrast projector and of course a really really dark room. WHy do I saw this? Because you said that you like the image to look bright like an RPTV and in the theaters. First off all, RPTVs are way way much brighter than most commercial theaters. At least double. brightness doesn't look double the difference because contrast ratio's are probably similar. No LCD projector though that I know can compete with contrast levels of a film projector or a CRT RPTV.


THe projector that might fit the bill would be the NEC HT1000. It has high real world contrast (not just spec'd). Pair it with an anamorphic lens, and you have a 16:9 projector that will do it at 768p.


If you really want a true 16:9 pj for around $5000, there's the benq 8700, it also has a high measured real world contrast.


both of these are machines are DLP.


see this thread regarding contrast ratios:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...postid=2686662
 

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Have you been in a movie theater that had the lights on WHILE the movie was playing??


Likewise, home projectors need darkness.. particularly low lumen ones. Give them darkness, and they will give you an impressive, punchy image.


The HS10 will certainly impress under the right conditions. Whether you want to view under those conditions is the question you need to answer.
 

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Rob,


Have you considered the JVC SX21? AVS is running a special on it right now and the pricing is right.


Zero rainbows. Least screen door of any projector technology. Highest resolution available of any consumer projector. It's worth a look...


If you haven't been impressed with what you've seen, you might want to see this...
 

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Hi Traveler,


It's best to ask the pricing question of AVS directly.


Mark
 

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Mark,

Understood! The point I was making is that Rob wanted something under $6K and even though AVS has a great deal on the JVC it's probably still out of his price range (although, I was sorely tempted when Jason e-mailed me with their price). :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Wow! This is fantastic and I thank you all very much for your replies. This is exactly what I wanted to hear! I'm fully aware that a FP will never have the light output of a RPTV...that's just silly. But I DO want something that can match the brightness of a movie theater (with the lights out of course)...that IS the point of "home" theater after all, no?


I've thankfully done some more reading on places like projectorcentral.com and it's helped me to better understand some of the values I need to look for in selecting a FP. For instance, the 700 lumen output (real, not spec'd) that will give a higher light reflection off the screen than a commercial movie theater. That's a figure I didn't have before and really helped me to understand what I'm looking for.


The places in which I saw the HS10 and Z1 did have some ambient light. I didn't think it was all that bright, but looking back on it, I could see how it may have affected the viewing experience. I didn't realize how little light was needed to wash out the image.


I also better understand the HS10 now. Basically, it seems as though the poor thing was just plucked out of the box and thrust into duty, so it's not surprising that it looked bland and dull.


All in all, I've learned a lot and all of your replies have restored my faith in the FP idea.


You'll all hate to here it, but I've still ended up deciding to stick with a RPTV for now. I'm in a condo, space is limited, but more importantly, I don't think I'm going to be able to always completely eliminate all ambient light.


Not only that, but I'll be honest: when I have friends over for a game-fest, a hockey game or a WWE pay-per-view or something, I tend to leave the lights on, simply so we can avoid putting our hands in the dip by accident! :p


Given that, it just makes more sense to stick with a RPTV for now and move up to a FP when I move into a house and can dedicate a room to a full (and always dark) theater.


Thanks so much for all the replies and thanks for restoring my faith :D


Rob
 

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Seems to be a lot of talk about the HS10, perhaps the setup was wrong (it was in a dark room but) when i viewed a HS10 was not impressed at all. Viewing was of 1080i HD and hmmmmm maybe im missing something but colours seemed over saturated and un natural and i don't think detail was that great. Was on 100" screen.
 
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