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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

I have been calibrating all of my TVs recently since I bought CalMAN 5 Advanced Calibration with a C3 meter. And I have been getting great results with all of them except for my Sharp.

 

It is a LC-60EUN88. When I try calibrating this in the Movie mode, my blue filter is making me change the color to -1 and the tint to a whopping -10!!! When I carry on calibrating after setting the basics, I get a decent grayscale after doing a 2 pt, however since I changed the tint so much, the colors are all really bad. And when I dive into the TV's CMS, I am forced to make drastic changes to each color's luminance and tint just to get the error under 3. Even by doing that, all the colors saturation are heavily messed up. And if I tweak the saturation, it doesn't do anything but increase the overall error. I've tried going back and forth but not getting any better.

 

Then I went ahead and tried calibrating the TV under its User mode. The blue filter tells me to change the color to -4 and the tint to +6. But then even before diving into the CMS, the grayscale (after doing a 2pt) is completely off. Even if I change the gamma setting, the grayscale in the Movie mode was better.

 

I bought this TV in 2010 so I know the tint shouldn't be messed with much. I have 3 blue filters and all of them want me to mess with the tint way too much. 

 

So should I go with the Movie mode and set tint to -10 and try my best in the CMS? It's really a pain in the butt because you have to really make HUGE changes to all the colors (but the saturation still stays horrible despite doing so). All my other TV's color and tint were pretty much correct at their defaults so no problem with CMS there.

 

By the way, I am using AVS HD 709 for the patterns.
 

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1.Reset CMS to default values.

2.Run 2pt grayscale.

3.Run 10pt grayscale - if you have controls for this.

4. do not use blue filter, instead of this, using "CMS Calibration" workflow set your CMS using meter.
 
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Just to chime in a well.


The blue filter is an old method that was designed for displays with color and tint only. Any display with a CMS fundamentally breaks the paradigm the blue filter is based off of. Blue filters work because red should have no blue and green should have no blue in them. But an oversaturated red or an over saturated green needs to have blue added to be de-saturated to it's target. So the blue filter now has blue light coming from all three primaries, making it's "match the luminance" method of adjustment no longer capable of giving you an accurate result.


And all of that is before we even get into the accuracy of the plastic filter itself. In case I need to elaborate on that, the filters don't aren't matched well enough to the response of the display. So even when the filters work, they are far less accurate than a meter.
 

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I could be wrong, but when you are using CMS, you usually leave color and tint at 0. note that many mid level sets, you can only get "close" to primaries and secondaries, i.e. you have to make trade-offs. also since you have a meter, no need to use blue filters.


I'm not exactly sure about your sharp model, but make sure in movie mode you're using standard color gamut and not an expanded one. expanded gamut can cause all sorts of problems. also, choose the 10 point calibration if that's available.


I've also found that after you go through cms and grayscale, you usually need to go through them again (and re-check brightness and contrast before each pass), as there's a bit of nonlinearity overall.


Best, jeff
 

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Try the Greyscale Calibration for Dummies guide as a refresher. But I think that it is correct, use your meter to calibrate color and not a blue filter. Leave color and tint alone and just use the tv's CMS controls. My ST60 only has controls for the primeries and not the secondaries. Adjust to get the lowest error for luminance when it comes to the primaries and focus on getting the lowest error in hue for the secondaries but overall the lowest dE if possible for all the colors. My CMS controls are HSL , or HUE Saturation and Luminance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Thanks for all of your guys' input. I understand what you are all saying. My other three HDTVs color and tint were already fine viewing through the blue filter (My Samsung had a more accurate blue only mode). On my Panasonic I was only able to do a 2 pt but it had a lovely CMS so the colors in the normal gamut have almost a nonexistent error. On my Samsung, I was able to do a 10 pt and the colors in the Auto mode were already great (Native was jacked up, even after I tried tweaking it). And my Sony only has a 2 pt. I couldn't find a CMS or color gamut on that one, so the colors are quite off on that TV unfortunately. However for the above TVs I was able to get a gamma around 2.2 and coincidentally good grayscales (especially the Samsung).

 

My Sharp is only capable of doing a 2 pt as well. However, it is the only TV I have where you can also individually adjust the secondary colors. I will try to recalibrate it without adjusting the color and tint controls and rely solely on the CMS. Unfortunately, there is no color gamut setting on this TV like their is on the Panasonic and Samsung.  

 

This TV was previously calibrated by Geek Squad in the summer of 2010. I had no knowledge of calibration back then. Now I realize why the TV looks too dark because they not only made the gamma -2 but they also left active contrast on which is effectively crushing the blacks. I hope I can do a better job as I have have with my other 3 TVs. 
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Okay guys. I have recalibrated the Sharp with your recommendations but I am still having an awful experience with the CMS. Here are my TV's settings:

 

Movie Mode: 

OPC: off

backlight: -8

contrast: +28

brightness: 0

color: 0

tint: 0

sharpness: 0

 

Advanced Settings:

I turned off active contrast, film mode, and digital noise reduction. 

I left fine motion advanced on high because it's an LCD.

Gamma was left at 0.

 

CMS Hue:

R: -5

Y: +9

G: 0

C: -1

B: 0

M: +4

CMS Saturation:

R: 0

Y: 0

G: -10

C: -30

B: 0

M: 0

CMS Value:

R: -15

Y: -3

G: -13

C: -30

B: -30

M: -11

 

Color Temperature:

Low

 

White Balance:

R Gain (LO): -3

G Gain (LO): -1

B Gain (LO): +6

R Gain (HI): -4

G Gain (HI): -2

B Gain (HI): +19

 

So with these settings, I achieved a decent grayscale (50% was right on dE 3). My average gamma was a bit low at 2.1. As I mentioned before, the CMS in this TV allows you to adjust all primary and secondary colors. After tweaking for hours, I came down with these results:

 

Red was about dE 3 and the hue was way too high, but the luminance and saturation were fine. 

Green had the highest error just under 4. The hue was even higher than red, but the luminance and saturation were fine.

Blue was under 3. The luminance was fine but the saturation and hue were way too low.

Cyan under 3. And the specs were fine.

Magenta had the lowest error. But it was heavily under saturated.

Yellow was also low but again, heavily under saturated.

 

I tried watching some familiar content. It looked HORRIBLE. Everyone was too red. And in dark scenes there was absolutely no color. Despite getting the colors under dE 3 for the most part, everything looked terrible. Maybe this is why Geek Squad didn't adjust CMS when they calibrated the TV either. 

 

I ended up deleting my CMS settings. I am tempted to hire an ISF just to manage my CMS if you guys don't have any other suggestions. This is the only TV that I can't seem to figure out in my house. Thanks 
 

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Try looking at gamut with 75% saturation, 75% luminance.


Especially on a set where the edges aren't quite right, the middle of the gamut correct is the most important part. We look at the edges, because that was the simplest thing to do years ago. Looking at inner saturation points gives you a lot more data about how the TV is performing with the colors you typically see on screen.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24471705


I ended up deleting my CMS settings.

Hello, generally the Sharp internal CMS system is most of the times broken, making the calibration using internal controls impossible, producing even more problems in image that the simple Gamut Charts can't show.


I believe you will have to thing of the idea to adding a Lumagen or eeColor to your setup to use as less controls as possible from your Sharp.


To take an idea of the advantages of 3D LUT vs. intenal control calibration, the difference in total number of correction points you can check a Cube Comparison here .
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24471705


I ended up deleting my CMS settings.

Try to measure your display 2 times, using 5-Step Saturation Patterns + Color Checker Patterns by using:


1) by pre-calibrated only grayscale - gamma only, leave CMS untouched.


2) pre-calibrated grayscale - gamma - cms.


you will see later by comparing the results how the broken CMS is fighting the linearity of your display.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24472766


Try looking at gamut with 75% saturation, 75% luminance.


Especially on a set where the edges aren't quite right, the middle of the gamut correct is the most important part. We look at the edges, because that was the simplest thing to do years ago. Looking at inner saturation points gives you a lot more data about how the TV is performing with the colors you typically see on screen.
I having been using 75% windows/fields for all of my CMS adjustments. 

 

I'll check if my license has color checker or not.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24476170


I having been using 75% windows/fields for all of my CMS adjustments. 


I'll check if my license has color checker or not.

75% luminance is not the same as 75% saturation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Also, the Movie mode's color defaults is quite bad as well. Skin tones appear way too red. Geek Squad's color appear more correct. They had calibrated under the User mode. They made the color -1 and the tint +6 and made no changes to the CMS. 
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24476173


Also, the Movie mode's color defaults is quite bad as well. Skin tones appear way too red. Geek Squad's color appear more correct. They had calibrated under the User mode. They made the color -1 and the tint +6 and made no changes to the CMS. 

Geek Squad is not known for doing a good job that's putting it lightly when it comes to calibrating. They are pressed for time and thus don't do a thorough enough job to properly calibrate a tv. I would reset your CMS and do a full calibration from the best picture mode your tv has to offer. Measure with a meter to see what gives you the best overall avg for greyscale error and gamma then calibrate from there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24479816



Geek Squad is not known for doing a good job that's putting it lightly when it comes to calibrating. They are pressed for time and thus don't do a thorough enough job to properly calibrate a tv. I would reset your CMS and do a full calibration from the best picture mode your tv has to offer. Measure with a meter to see what gives you the best overall avg for greyscale error and gamma then calibrate from there.
I know Geek Squad is not. They left active contrast on on my TV as well as noise reduction on auto. They also set sharpness too low. But when we got it calibrated back then, I didn't know anything. The problem I'm having is with the CMS. And in terms of the most accurate mode, movie seems accurate in terms of basic controls but everyone appears way too red. So I think User has more accurate colors.  
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24480793


I know Geek Squad is not. They left active contrast on on my TV as well as noise reduction on auto. They also set sharpness too low. But when we got it calibrated back then, I didn't know anything. The problem I'm having is with the CMS. And in terms of the most accurate mode, movie seems accurate in terms of basic controls but everyone appears way too red. So I think User has more accurate colors.  

You will have to measure with your meter to see which one is closer to being more accurate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

I had an ICF calibrator come in yesterday to fully calibrate this Sharp. We were able to achieve a great grayscale and gamma. However, the colors are still jacked up. The CMS is broken. I have resorted to using my blue filter to adjust color and tint back to -1 and +10 and that seems to be the best result for flesh tones and overall picture. 

 

Does anyone know if new Sharp displays have bad CMS as well?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy  /t/1522035/help-needed#post_24574221


Sounds like you should look for a used DVDO Duo or eeColor LUT box if you want a working CMS or color cube calibration.

eeColor is by far the most value for money solution for someone who want to enter to 3D LUT World.


I have designed a Cube Resolution Comparison Guide to visualise the difference over various cube resolution sizes.


The eeColor 3D LUT Box it works with true 3D LUT's of 65-Point Cube Size (65x65x65) for precise display calibration and can be used with LightSpace Full CMS/HCC/HCL or CalMAN 5 Enthusiast/Expert/Professional/Studio/Ultimate or ArgyllCMS.
 
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