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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Audiophiles,


I am looking for some input on how to best setup my speakers and AVR. I have a small room and do not have a lot of rear room.


I consider myself to be somewhat handy and created a shelving system (out of black iron pipe, normally used to run natural gas lines, and planks of oak) to frame my 58" Plasma, shown here:

(I was inspired by a similar unit found at the Ace hotel in Palm Springs PM if interested in more info, I will try to get better pictures)


I have drawn a quick diagram and in the words of Dr Emmett Brown, "Please excuse the crudity of this model, I didn't have time to build it to scale or to paint it."


I have purchased two in ceiling speakers: Mirage Omnican OC-45s

And the Martin Logan MLT-1 5.1 Channel set.


The AVR I have is the Yamaha RX-A1000.


Because I do not have a lot of room in the rear, what I would like to do is set up the in ceiling speakers at the A and B locations in my diagram and map to surround L and R.


C - Left Channel beside screen and Left Presence above

D - Center Channel under screen

E - Right Channel beside screen and Right Presence above

F - Subwoofer


My concerns are:
  • Can I utilize the front presence and zone 2 functionality with my AVR (Yamaha RX-A1000)?
  • Will a 5.1 + Front Presence provide enough surround sound with only two rear speakers especially considering those two are in the ceiling?
  • How much would I gain from actually wall mounting surround on the short wall and in the nook on both sides of the couch?

Thank you all,

-MD
 

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From your crude not to scale or painted model LOL.....


Id say your lay out is perfect. The speaker placement is close to how I would lay it out for a small room. I made a few revisions to your plan...Try this if it works....


I would move the subwoofer to the front of the room though, under the rack there on the right would be good. I know they say its doesnt matter, bass is non directional but as in a movie theater the sub(s) are upfront. We Are trying recreate that experience and that helps with makeing it accurate. NOt to mention plugging it into your receiver will be real easy.


Your room is small so I wouldnt do more the 5.1 myself and I wouldnt worry about the front presence speakers. I honestly think its more hype then real word practicale. I know they are trying to push the front height or width channels but nothing is recoreded that way any way and front speakers in a normal home are more then enough. If you had really high ceilings or a really long room I would then concider them or othe speakers for fills but thats a whole differnt thing.

You will be supprised that the rears wont sound like they are in the ceiling when they are doing what that are supposed to in that space. If you had aimable speakers ( not AIM series from speakercraft) but the angled inceilings they get the sound right down there next to the screen and all around you in the listening area real well. BUT that doenst mean those wont either. Ive done a lot of smaller systems with down pointing in ceiling speakers and they have all sounded and worked better then you would think. Depeending on ceiling height the center can sound like its not comming from the screen but in your case I doubt you will really encounter that. Usyally ceilingat at 10 feet orn more need more concideraiton.

I just did a retro fit 3 weeks ago with the layout like this without a sub and the sound was very good. It only had 6 1/2" inceilings, no sub, powered with an ONKYONR609 with Audessy EQ running.


Id install the system as you drew it out and with the exception of the sub and small changes as shown in my redesign I think youll be more then pleased.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic C /forum/post/20772175


From your crude not to scale or painted model LOL.....


Id say your lay out is perfect. The speaker placement is close to how I would lay it out for a small room. I made a few revisions to your plan...Try this if it works....


I would move the subwoofer to the front of the room though, under the rack there on the right would be good. I know they say its doesnt matter, bass is non directional but as in a movie theater the sub(s) are upfront. We Are trying recreate that experience and that helps with makeing it accurate. NOt to mention plugging it into your receiver will be real easy.


Your room is small so I wouldnt do more the 5.1 myself and I wouldnt worry about the front presence speakers. I honestly think its more hype then real word practicale. I know they are trying to push the front height or width channels but nothing is recoreded that way any way and front speakers in a normal home are more then enough. If you had really high ceilings or a really long room I would then concider them or othe speakers for fills but thats a whole differnt thing.

You will be supprised that the rears wont sound like they are in the ceiling when they are doing what that are supposed to in that space. If you had aimable speakers ( not AIM series from speakercraft) but the angled inceilings they get the sound right down there next to the screen and all around you in the listening area real well. BUT that doenst mean those wont either. Ive done a lot of smaller systems with down pointing in ceiling speakers and they have all sounded and worked better then you would think. Depeending on ceiling height the center can sound like its not comming from the screen but in your case I doubt you will really encounter that. Usyally ceilingat at 10 feet orn more need more concideraiton.

I just did a retro fit 3 weeks ago with the layout like this without a sub and the sound was very good. It only had 6 1/2" inceilings, no sub, powered with an ONKYONR609 with Audessy EQ running.


Id install the system as you drew it out and with the exception of the sub and small changes as shown in my redesign I think youll be more then pleased.

Thank you Vic, I will move the sub to the front and widen the in ceiling speakers. I have the extra speakers so I will probably still give the front presence a go.


-MD
 

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Try the sub in both places to see which is right for your room.


Since you are handy, why don't you build stands and replace A-B in-ceiling with bookshelves on stands beside the couch?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 /forum/post/20773750


Try the sub in both places to see which is right for your room.


Since you are handy, why don't you build stands and replace A-B in-ceiling with bookshelves on stands beside the couch?

I could easily put one on the short wall to the viewers right, but the nook to the left is a recessed bar top and a shelf with a speaker would not be visually appealing. Both could be done, but I would prefer not to. The question is how much value would that add to the viewing/listening experience?


-MD
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini_Ditka /forum/post/20774149


I could easily put one on the short wall to the viewers right, but the nook to the left is a recessed bar top and a shelf with a speaker would not be visually appealing. Both could be done, but I would prefer not to. The question is how much value would that add to the viewing/listening experience?


-MD

The rears should actually be at the back of the couch anyways, so why don't you make them inwalls at ear level behind the couch - that would be better than from above.
 

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Personally I would forget the back surround channels, because a 7.1 system is usually only called for when the left & right normal surround channel speakers have to be placed very far apart which can result in a sonic "hole" behind the listenign position. Plus placing the speakers, any speakers, of a surround sound system in the ceiling is probably the worst place in my opinion. All you will get is a glorified p.a. system and anyway most of the mixing rooms for surround soundtracks that I have seen online have their monitor speakers all at ear level.


I agree with rick240, and would try to put the rear channels behind & to the sides of the couch just like in those studio mixing rooms. And if you have to move the couch forwards a bit to enable that to happen, I would do that too.


BTW I have found that the larger the room the better the surround soundfield sounds, maybe the extra reverberation helps with that? and the smaller it is the more easily it is to detect specific speakers, in other words, I would leave out those presence channels since their output will probably not blend very well with the other speakers' output. I openly admit I have never heard presence channels and am basing this opinion on what I have experienced with conventional 5.1 systems.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan /forum/post/20774790


Personally I would forget the back surround channels, because a 7.1 system is usually only called for when the left & right normal surround channel speakers have to be placed very far apart which can result in a sonic "hole" behind the listenign position. Plus placing the speakers, any speakers, of a surround sound system in the ceiling is probably the worst place in my opinion. All you will get is a glorified p.a. system and anyway most of the mixing rooms for surround soundtracks that I have seen online have their monitor speakers all at ear level.


I agree with rick240, and would try to put the rear channels behind & to the sides of the couch just like in those studio mixing rooms. And if you have to move the couch forwards a bit to enable that to happen, I would do that too.


BTW I have found that the larger the room the better the surround soundfield sounds, maybe the extra reverberation helps with that? and the smaller it is the more easily it is to detect specific speakers, in other words, I would leave out those presence channels since their output will probably not blend very well with the other speakers' output. I openly admit I have never heard presence channels and am basing this opinion on what I have experienced with conventional 5.1 systems.

AS the OP posted and as you can see from the drawing the room is SMALL.

In these small rooms in ceilign speakers will work well. We are not building amixing room, nor are we building a Dedicated audiophile Theater where we have license to put the speakers in the absolulte best place.

Living room systems are somewhat of a compromise, Our houmes are not built to just serve the purpose as a movie theater so there has to be some adjustment where speakers are placed.


You could put the speakers at ear level on the sided but then the left rear doesnt have a place to go becaus eof the nook. You could put them in the rear wall pointing forward but to put then in the ceiling where I placed them will work just fine for rear surround. I have built many systems like this andIm not the only system designer that uses this approach with very good results.

To say thats the worst place for them is not an accurate statement.

I stick to my re design of the system plan.
 
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