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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Help to Choose Sony VPL-VW360ES Native 4K / Epson LS 10500 4K Enhanced / JVC X790 4K

Hi Guys,

I think the time come to upgrade my current JVC X550. I really don't know what to pick as the next projector for my budget.
My friend has Epson LS10000 we have calibrated it and the picture is very well presented, its not so bright as my JVC X550 but its Laser based and colours and calibration stays precise and spot on for long period.
I bought x550 2 years ago and today Native 4k is all around as we have 4k UHD Blu Rays and lots of new content. JVC Z1 Native 4K is out the my budget very expensive ) So I found SONY VPL-VW360ES as the latest model with HDR support and 4k Native panels.
I remember I've read about SXRD panel degradation but still not sure, whether its just a wrong statement by Sony users and hasn't been officially confirmed.
Convergence is quite important factor for me as well, Native contrast and good blacks (I loved blacks at my x500 and x550) never seen Sony projectors in reality. Could you please shed some light that owned some of these projects and switched from one to another, can you explain what you liked and what you didn't like?
In regards to Laser source vs. lamp based I don't find this an issue, as my X550 been at my home for 2 years and I still use it a low lamp mode with Dynamic Iris switched to 6 value, measuring light and its still 18-20 ftL calibrated, so lamp hasn't dimmed too much at all.
Thank you guys.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'd steer you to blow out, clearance deal on a jvc x770/rs520 or the x790/rs540 if you can spend a little more.

SONY VPL-VW360ES is the most expensive among them, so you still prefer x790? why?
 

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This side of the forum is very pro JVC. With good reason it would seem but nevertheless.

The thing is though all questions like yours are almost always going to be answered with "get a JVC (model number X....".

Some may come and refute this but I've been a lurker for several years and it's been that way the whole time.

The Sony does seem to be an excellent projector for the price especially at Native 4K. Not too many of those around at this time.
 

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SONY VPL-VW360ES is the most expensive among them, so you still prefer x790? why?
Hi Soul... I have many reasons why, and it's not because I am pro JVC. I just recently sold a Sony VW90ES 1080p SXRD projector I owned for almost 10 years. The Sony had a dynamic on/off contrast of around 150K:1 and it was very good. Only reason I ended up selling was I run a CIH 2.35:1 screen format, and the VW90 did not have lens memory.

I bought a used RS520 (x770) from an AVS member back in May to replace the vw90es. The 520 has a NATIVE panel contrast of 130K:1 and a Dynamic on/off of 1.3million:1. That difference in contrast performance was, well it was eye opening. The experience of fade to black and dark scenes was very dramatic.

The vw360ES at 200k:1 dynamic on/off contrast will be very similar to the vw90es.

I ended up selling that rs520 and just took delivery of the new JVC X990 (RS640), which is even better than rs520 in almost every way.

When it came to making a list of pros and cons, the only thing I thought Sony did better was Motion Handling, which is well covered topic on AVS. However, I found the motion handling on the 520 to be very good, and the x990 seems a little better.

When it comes to 4k performance and the actual "resolved" resolution we see on the screen, I found the 520 to offer just enough extra resolution beyond 1080P. The x990 with e-shift 5 and the superior lens, does an even better job at extending resolution beyond 1080P.

If native 4k was my top priority, maybe I would have considered one of the new Sony native 4k projectors. But based on reviews, the only Sony 4K that would even begin to match the x790 or x990 in other critical areas, would be the 760es/885es at 3x-4x the cost. So, I have no hesitation to recommend the x790 over the 360es, and dollar for dollar, you could get the even better x990 instead of the 360es or 675es. I seriously considered having a 760es shipped to the US at a pretty good discount, but still think that extra $9000 will be better spent in the future.

Let me go off track for a sec and complain about the way Sony prices it's products. Sony has a dealer program called SURE which greatly restricts price competition among dealers. JVC does not. As a result the deal I was able to get on the x990, as a discount off MSRP, was crazy compared to what deals I could get on a new Sony. If the resale value of the Sony would prove to be superior to the JVC, that would be one thing to justify the discounted cost difference. However, that has not been the case, so SURE seems to only really benefit SONY. So on principle, I'd prefer to give my business to a company with more consumer friendly dealer sales rules.

When it comes to the LS10500, i gave that projector more serious consideration than any of the new Sony 4K projectors. Upon close examination of both the 10000 & 10500, IMHO they are ONE generation away from being able to shake up the market. But I need the ls10500 to make a couple of upgrades... such as, 18G HDMI, 2000-3000 lumens with dynamic laser dimming, a little better HDR gamma management, and a couple of others things, all at a price competitive with the x990/RS640.

Maybe Epson will release an update for the LS10500 next year. Maybe JVC will offer a laser E-shift projector next year Both of those updates would get my attention as I really want to move to a laser optical block, but not for more than the cost of the x990/rs640.

I hope that gives a little foundation to my recommendation. I know other AVS members will come to a different conclusion.

Good luck with whatever you decide to get.
 

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Hi Soul... I have many reasons why, and it's not because I am pro JVC. I just recently sold a Sony VW90ES 1080p SXRD projector I owned for almost 10 years. The Sony had a dynamic on/off contrast of around 150K:1 and it was very good. Only reason I ended up selling was I run a CIH 2.35:1 screen format, and the VW90 did not have lens memory.

I bought a used RS520 (x770) from an AVS member back in May to replace the vw90es. The 520 has a NATIVE panel contrast of 130K:1 and a Dynamic on/off of 1.3million:1. That difference in contrast performance was, well it was eye opening. The experience of fade to black and dark scenes was very dramatic.

The vw360ES at 200k:1 dynamic on/off contrast will be very similar to the vw90es.

I ended up selling that rs520 and just took delivery of the new JVC X990 (RS640), which is even better than rs520 in almost every way.

When it came to making a list of pros and cons, the only thing I thought Sony did better was Motion Handling, which is well covered topic on AVS. However, I found the motion handling on the 520 to be very good, and the x990 seems a little better.

When it comes to 4k performance and the actual "resolved" resolution we see on the screen, I found the 520 to offer just enough extra resolution beyond 1080P. The x990 with e-shift 5 and the superior lens, does an even better job at extending resolution beyond 1080P.

If native 4k was my top priority, maybe I would have considered one of the new Sony native 4k projectors. But based on reviews, the only Sony 4K that would even begin to match the x790 or x990 in other critical areas, would be the 760es/885es at 3x-4x the cost. So, I have no hesitation to recommend the x790 over the 360es, and dollar for dollar, you could get the even better x990 instead of the 360es or 675es. I seriously considered having a 760es shipped to the US at a pretty good discount, but still think that extra $9000 will be better spent in the future.

Let me go off track for a sec and complain about the way Sony prices it's products. Sony has a dealer program called SURE which greatly restricts price competition among dealers. JVC does not. As a result the deal I was able to get on the x990, as a discount off MSRP, was crazy compared to what deals I could get on a new Sony. If the resale value of the Sony would prove to be superior to the JVC, that would be one thing to justify the discounted cost difference. However, that has not been the case, so SURE seems to only really benefit SONY. So on principle, I'd prefer to give my business to a company with more consumer friendly dealer sales rules.

When it comes to the LS10500, i gave that projector more serious consideration than any of the new Sony 4K projectors. Upon close examination of both the 10000 & 10500, IMHO they are ONE generation away from being able to shake up the market. But I need the ls10500 to make a couple of upgrades... such as, 18G HDMI, 2000-3000 lumens with dynamic laser dimming, a little better HDR gamma management, and a couple of others things, all at a price competitive with the x990/RS640.

Maybe Epson will release an update for the LS10500 next year. Maybe JVC will offer a laser E-shift projector next year Both of those updates would get my attention as I really want to move to a laser optical block, but not for more than the cost of the x990/rs640.

I hope that gives a little foundation to my recommendation. I know other AVS members will come to a different conclusion.

Good luck with whatever you decide to get.
What a great response you have provided and I really appreciate you for that. Yes you are absolutely right, I've done more research and found out that VW360ES are discounted, therefore VW365ES been released and the biggest issue they have - they don't have dynamic iris, which directly impact on the deep levels of black, I've get used so much to really good blacks, as my old x500 and current x550 are a proove that they throw just a stunning image. I've found that VW675ES has dynamic iris and brings that feature into the game with 1800 lumens and full HDR support it also gives a great image. Your concern is very important whether 4k is what I'm looking for. Can you tell the image sharpness from x990 and VW675ES has no big difference if watching it on 135 inch screen from 4 meters? I really would like to have a crispy image as I have loads of 4k content at the moment and there is a difference of image quality, even when watched on mine X550 with EShift 4. My plan is also to shift to a laser source of light, but its price apart from Epson is way too high, I can get JVC Z1 at 25 thousand pounds, where retail price is 35 but still this is quite lots of money for a theatre projector. I really like how my friends Epsons shows LS 10000.
If going towards JVC, would you say there is a big difference between x790 and x990 apart from Lumens?
Thank you,

Sou.
 

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I have a review o.f the x990 in the owners thread which covers a wide range of points, so I won't repeat.

The x990 vs x790... based on your appreciation of resolution, clarity and contrast, I think you would also appreciate the benefit of the x990 over the very good x790. I condition the contrast benefit by saying a dark ht does improve and expand the ability of the x990 to do an even better job. I'd also note the discounted price delta between the x790 and x990 is much lower than it used to be, but the jvc warranty is now the same 3 years advanced replacement.

X990 vs 675es... setting aside consideration of other criteria and making just a comparison of screen resolution and clarity, I think you have two major points...

1 panel resolution
2 lens quality

let's take lens quality 1st... what good is a higher rez panel if the lens fallss short? The x990 lens is awe inspiring in its full panel clarity. Imho, the lens choices on some of the new sony 4k projectors, compromise the potential of that 4k panel. So when taking the lens into consideration, I think the x990/rs640 win over all but the 760/885.

Regarding native 4k vs faux k, only a couple of current projectors can fully resolve their 4k panel on the screen, 760/885es, rs4500... others fall in between 1080p and 4k, so then it's a question of how resolution reproduction rolls off as you approach 4k. 135" screen might be a size where you need to more seriously consider projected resolution, depending on how close you sit.

Imho, the x990 showing 4k content, or scaled 2k content from something like a ub900 player, is competitive or superior to the lower end sony 4 projectors. I think you have to compare the higher end sony 4k because thats when you get a lens good enough to properly resolve the 4k panel resolution on the screen.

I was able to compare a rs620 and the vw665es, and I thought the jvc was better in every way. The 665es did not have a projected resolution advantage to my eyes. Others may and have disagreed. And when you consider eshift 4 vs eshift5 on the rs640x990, the panel performance and pixel management improves a little more.

The question I have, is not so much the 665es/675es vs the x990, it's the 665es/675es vs the x790, because the lens on the x790 is a tad lower quality than that on the x990. (The x990 lens and several other parts are hand picked for superior quality). I cover how they are different in my x990 review.

I think you have to be looking at the 760/885es to make comparison, and for me its largely the benefit of the laser optical more than anything else.
 

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I have a review o.f the x990 in the owners thread which covers a wide range of points, so I won't repeat.

The x990 vs x790... based on your appreciation of resolution, clarity and contrast, I think you would also appreciate the benefit of the x990 over the very good x790. I condition the contrast benefit by saying a dark ht does improve and expand the ability of the x990 to do an even better job. I'd also note the discounted price delta between the x790 and x990 is much lower than it used to be, but the jvc warranty is now the same 3 years advanced replacement.

X990 vs 675es... setting aside consideration of other criteria and making just a comparison of screen resolution and clarity, I think you have two major points...

1 panel resolution
2 lens quality

let's take lens quality 1st... what good is a higher rez panel if the lens fallss short? The x990 lens is awe inspiring in its full panel clarity. Imho, the lens choices on some of the new sony 4k projectors, compromise the potential of that 4k panel. So when taking the lens into consideration, I think the x990/rs640 win over all but the 760/885.

Regarding native 4k vs faux k, only a couple of current projectors can fully resolve their 4k panel on the screen, 760/885es, rs4500...
others fall in between 1080p and 4k, so it then it's a question of how resolution reproduction rolls off as you approach 4k. 135" screen might be a size where you need to more seriously consider projected resolution, depending on how close you sit.

Imho, the x990 showing 4k content, or scaled 2k content from something like a ub900 player, is competitive or superior to the lower end sony 4 projectors. I think you have to compare the higher end sony 4k because thats when you a lens good enough to properly resolve the 4k panel resolution on the screen.

I was able to compare a rs620 and the vw665es, and I thought the jvc was better in every way. The 665es did not have a projected resolution advantage to my eyes. Others may and have disagreed. And when you consider eshift 4 vs eshift5 on the rs640x990, the panel performance and pixel management improves a little more.

The question I have, is not so much the 665es/675es vs the x990, it's the 665es/675es vs the x790, because the lens on the x790 is a tad lower quality than that on the x990. (The x990 lens and several other parts are hand picked for superior quality). I cover how they are different in my x990 review.

I think you have to be looking at the 760/885es to make comparison, and for me its largely the benefit of the laser optical more than anything else.
Im sure you mean 5000ES and RS4500.

The 885 has the same lens as the lower Sony's. There is no documentation to reasonably conclude they hand picked those lenses in the 885.
 

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Really? Well, that would change the calculus for me. I thought the 760/885 had a better lens. :(
We were really hoping it was going to have the same ARC-F lens as in the 1100ES it replaced, but not so.
 

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Really? Well, that would change the calculus for me. I thought the 760/885 had a better lens. :(


Thank you for all your feedback, after summing up pros and cons I have placed an order on 760es and it should be delivered on 1-2 of December. I have read some reviews by Vincent and Kris of the pre prod unit, and I want to try Sony this time, for me is very important to have native 4k panels and laser source is a big plus, as I am a nutter in calibration and make sure picture is always perfectly calibrated )) no doubt x990 is top line bulb JVC projector, but still wanna try Sony native 4k laser, especially I can afford this one and ready to pay those money. Now time to sell my x550 and stick with Sony one. I would leave my review later on when I will have it in hands.


Video Chain: JVC RS400/x550 > Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 > OPPO UDP-203 > Elite Screen 16:9 135" 1.1 Gain MaxWhite
Audio: Sony BDMV 9200 5.1 System
 

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@Bytehoven

Actually, SoulOfUniverse is european, so he doesn't "suffer" from the SURE pricing policies in the US. As well as having a more reasonably priced VW760ES
 
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I ended up with SONY VPL-VW760ES and I must say its best PJ among those ones mentioned here. I had an ability to compare two units X9900 latest with 760ES, X9900 only had better blacks and its actually your eyes get used to, everything else VW760ES was a total winner (it was throwing the crispiest image). Unfortunately I didn't have a chance to view Z1, but for this price range I was ready to pay extra 7k and have 760ES.
 
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