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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is some history..... you guys have been an awesome help when I asked questions a few weeks/months ago about how to setup stuff in my new house and what speakers to get.


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Here is the state of my new home theater room in the basement. 22' x 22' with a 9' ceiling, but the ginormous bulk head reduces it to 8' in almost a third of the room. I have the room pre-wired for 7.2.4 in the following orientation already. I just ran some open speaker wires on the floor to see what the room would look like after it's finished. Those are Wharfedale 4.3 towers and a Wharfedale 4.C center. The giant bulkhead comes down a foot from the ceiling and ruins the screen size and to a lesser extent ruins the view as well. The screen size is 164".

My projector is a Sony VPL -HW45ES, which is HD but not 4k.

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If I zoom the projector to fit the actual 2.35:1 image and let the black bars climb into the bulk head portion of the ceiling , then the screen size is 188".

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The rear of the room looks like this. The plan is to mount the projector in the mechanical room behind that wall in the pic below , and projecting though a hole

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But..................., I wanted to see how things are if I changed the orientation of where we sit and watch. I basically switched the room by 90 degrees, with the couch by the door and watching on the opposite wall.

The screen size is 192" and that's the max size screen I can get from the projector at that distance and any bigger would cover the center channel anyways. If I stand next to the projected image, I can see the individual pixels . Also, in this orientation I'm using the full 9' of the height in the room and the bulk head doesn't get in the way.

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This is what the new rear of the room would look like.

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My original through was to mount the speakers this way as in the image below, but the problem is that the bulkhead is packed with a/c ducts, water lines and electrical wire etc, so I can't really put atmos speakers in the ceiling and I need to put them ON the ceiling.

I have RSL c34e and love them. What are my options to mount them ON the ceiling ? I reached out to RSL and they said they don't have any solution for it and my best bet is to get a custom enclosure built. The speaker is 4.25" deep so I need a box that is not too deep so that the door can still open and close without hitting them. Also, the box needs to pass WAF :)

I know I need to re-wire the room for 7.2.4 in the other orientation, but that's the least of my worries.

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Any help on how to mount the RSLs on the ceiling are appreciated.

The four RSL's cost me $500 in total. If you have a solution where I can completely replace the in-ceiling RSLs with different on-ceiling atmos speakers without breaking the bank, I think my wife would be happier. Again, they need to pass WAF :)

Thanks in advance.
Wally
 

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You're probably not going to like my suggestion but here it is:

You don't need to use the full size of the room and I think you could solve a few problems here by not using all of its length.

1. By moving the seating closer to the wall, you don't need to project as large an image.
2. Projecting a smaller image will let you raise the height a little. The way it's projected now, it looks to me like the image is really low to the ground.
3. Moving the seating forward will give you more clearance for the speakers, especially if the rear overhead speakers are now out of the bulkhead area.

22' is a long room. I've got two rows of seating in a 11 x 18 room with a 100" 16:9 screen, first row about 10' from the screen. This is almost too close for subtitled movies.

Anyway, just a thought. I agree the room works better with 90° rotation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You're probably not going to like my suggestion but here it is:

You don't need to use the full size of the room and I think you could solve a few problems here by not using all of its length.

1. By moving the seating closer to the wall, you don't need to project as large an image.
2. Projecting a smaller image will let you raise the height a little. The way it's projected now, it looks to me like the image is really low to the ground.
3. Moving the seating forward will give you more clearance for the speakers, especially if the rear overhead speakers are now out of the bulkhead area.

22' is a long room. I've got two rows of seating in a 11 x 18 room with a 100" 16:9 screen, first row about 10' from the screen. This is almost too close for subtitled movies.

Anyway, just a thought. I agree the room works better with 90° rotation.
Thanks for your suggestion jaysoffian. We are used to having the screen that low and we're comfortable with it. From where we sit we look at the center of the screen without having to look up. When we decide to add a second row, we'll move the first row closer to the screen and reduce the screen size, but the second row will stay where the couch is right now. If it wasn't for the door, the couch would have been even closer to the wall.

We have an alternate 16' x 22' room we could have made into a home theater and it would have been more like yours I'm guessing. We opted for the bigger room, since we wanted the extra space for things like a popcorn maker etc.

For now we want to mount atmos speakers on wall on the bulkhead.
 

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I'm going to address the naked chartreuse elephant in the room. I would return your speakers if they're going to be that far away and with the CENTRE ON THE FLOOR.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm going to address the naked chartreuse elephant in the room. I would return your speakers if they're going to be that far away and with the CENTRE ON THE FLOOR.
I'm being completely honest when I say I want to learn why you recommend that I return the speakers if they are that far from MLP and the center on the floor sigpig? I will be tilting the center up to point to the MLP.

Thanks for your help
 

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Sorry, I was a bit harsh there. I will do my best to explain.
You spent a good amount of money on some reportedly very nice speakers. They look beautiful in your space.
They are not, however, going to have the output needed at your viewing distance. While the 4.C is an very good 3-way centre, ANY centre channel speaker that is sitting on the floor, no matter if it's aimed up or not, is going to sound as if voices are coming from your feet, IME.
Since you haven't purchased your screen yet, I would highly suggest three identical in-wall speakers for your LCR behind an acoustically-transparent (AT) screen (Silver Ticket is often recommended). This will allow you to hide your speakers, and have the acoustic ideal of all three speakers being vertically aligned and on the same plane.
You can get some excellent in-walls that WILL have the output needed for your viewing distance. Klipsch, Martin Logan, Focal, Monoprice, etc all have several options. Check out the dedicated theatre sub-forum for lots of different setups.
 

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You aren't going to want to hear this, but ... you can't rely on using the bulkhead for your Atmos speakers. You have no idea what's in there and whether you can install anywhere close to where you envision their placement. So, you would be far better off to install the Atmos speakers in the higher portion of the ceiling, two in front of the bulkhead and then two more some distance forward of that position.

This positioning will necessitate that the couch move forward to allow for proper Atmos coverage. It will also necessitate that the screen size be proportionally reduced. This is a very good thing, as you have not seemed to notice how washed out the picture is at that size. A 10 foot wide picture at 10 feet viewing distance has the same impact as a 20 foot wide picture at 20 feet viewing distance. Actually, that is not true, as the shorter throw will have far superior color saturation and brightness.

In addition, you will not be able to have a raised platform for your second row under that bulkhead, as the ceiling will be too low in that configuration. Having the picture so low to the ground requires a higher platform, so not an option.

Even though the room is large, the HT seating portion really needs to be scaled down to accommodate the space restrictions. As you said, you wanted additional space for other things, so this will allow for that to happen.

Don't fall in love with the large screen size if it forces you to compromise everything else.
 

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IMHO. Picture/Screen under the bulkhead. Atmos speakers in the ceiling that isn't the bulkhead, with front Atmos as close a possible. Move couch or seating in between the Atmos speakers. Place other speakers and equipment as needed. Enjoy!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sorry, I was a bit harsh there. I will do my best to explain.
You spent a good amount of money on some reportedly very nice speakers. They look beautiful in your space.
They are not, however, going to have the output needed at your viewing distance. While the 4.C is an very good 3-way centre, ANY centre channel speaker that is sitting on the floor, no matter if it's aimed up or not, is going to sound as if voices are coming from your feet, IME.
Since you haven't purchased your screen yet, I would highly suggest three identical in-wall speakers for your LCR behind an acoustically-transparent (AT) screen (Silver Ticket is often recommended). This will allow you to hide your speakers, and have the acoustic ideal of all three speakers being vertically aligned and on the same plane.
You can get some excellent in-walls that WILL have the output needed for your viewing distance. Klipsch, Martin Logan, Focal, Monoprice, etc all have several options. Check out the dedicated theatre sub-forum for lots of different setups.
sigpig,

Please don't think you were being harsh. I like that you were being honest in your opinion/assessment. That's what I like about this forum. Everyone helps everyone else and sometimes the truth hurts, but it's the truth.

Here is an image of my home theater room in my old house. We were sitting at around 25'+ from a 160" screen (projected on the bare wall) with in-wall speakers Def Tech 5.5LCR for left and right, and Def Tech 6.5 LCR for a center channel and the center was a foot off the ground.

Coming from that setup, to the setup now, we feel like we definitely upgraded, even though the distance to MLP is further than what's probably worth it for the Wharfedale EVOs.

Although, to be completely honest, I did notice that in the old house I used to set the same receiver (a Pioneer SC-95) to a lesser volume level to fill the open concept basement which was an 8' ceiling with tile flooring, versus a higher volume level in the new home theater which has carpet floor with a mix of 8' and 9' ceiling. I'm guessing the tile vs the carpet flooring makes a difference in sound dispersion.

So far I haven't thought about getting a screen at all. We want to continue projecting on to the wall like in the old house. May be a couple years down the line when I can convince my wife to upgrade the speakers, I'll get the ugliest best performers out there and put them behind an acoustically transparent screen so as to not care about WAF. Until then, the Wharfedales are it. Also, I'm beyond the return window for the Wharfedales at Crutchfield and I don't wanna go through the hassle again with my wife.

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You aren't going to want to hear this, but ... you can't rely on using the bulkhead for your Atmos speakers. You have no idea what's in there and whether you can install anywhere close to where you envision their placement. So, you would be far better off to install the Atmos speakers in the higher portion of the ceiling, two in front of the bulkhead and then two more some distance forward of that position.

This positioning will necessitate that the couch move forward to allow for proper Atmos coverage. It will also necessitate that the screen size be proportionally reduced. This is a very good thing, as you have not seemed to noticed how washed out the picture is at that size. A 10 foot wide picture at 10 feet viewing distance has the same impact as a 20 foot wide picture at 20 feet viewing distance. Actually, that is not true, as the shorter throw will have far superior color saturation and brightness.

In addition, you will not be able to have a raised platform for your second row under that bulkhead, as the ceiling will be too low in that configuration. Having the picture so low to the ground requires a higher platform, so not an option.

Even though the room is large, the HT seating portion really needs to be scaled down to accommodate the space restrictions. As you said, you wanted additional space for other things, so this will allow for that to happen.

Don't fall in love with the large screen size if it forces you to compromise everything else.
RayGuy,

I've given up on the idea of putting the speaker "in-ceiling" in the bulk head. There is too much crap in there. There is definitely no space. I have a framing/dry wall handyman who can probably build a box around the RSL speakers and affix that box to the bulkhead directly if needed. Worst case scenario, I was looking at getting four SVS Prime Elevation (Prime Elevation) in white and ceiling mount them to the bulk head. If I need to move the speakers forward into the higher ceiling, I can just mount them in-ceiling.

I do understand that the picture is washed out at that size and throw distance. I can see each individual pixel when I stand next to the wall. That was the case in the old house too. For noe, we don't mind. If I upgrade to a 4K projector down the line though, I'm going to have to reduce the throw distance, otherwise there is no point in projecting a 4K image from 20' away as it will probably end up looking like a HD image.

Again, thanks to both of you for the honest feedback. I come here for it.

Wally
 

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You still have very nice speakers for your LCR, I'm just trying to help you get the most out of them.
If you move your seating to something closer to 12-16 feet, then you have a LOT more options.
You can use a smaller screen, get the same apparent image size, better colour, etc. You can also mount the projector from the higher ceiling so it won't be directly above your head.
Your speakers won't have to work as hard to play sound. At your distance, you will NOT be able to get Reference SPL (85dB with 10dB peaks) without massive amplifiers that may be too powerful for your speakers.
You will have room behind your sectional for other things.
You can install the Atmos speakers in the higher part of the ceiling.
Your centre speaker can be mounted on a stand with the smaller screen. Your mains can also be closer together.
You never mentioned anything about subwoofers...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You still have very nice speakers for your LCR, I'm just trying to help you get the most out of them.
If you move your seating to something closer to 12-16 feet, then you have a LOT more options.
You can use a smaller screen, get the same apparent image size, better colour, etc. You can also mount the projector from the higher ceiling so it won't be directly above your head.
Your speakers won't have to work as hard to play sound. At your distance, you will NOT be able to get Reference SPL (85dB with 10dB peaks) without massive amplifiers that may be too powerful for your speakers.
You will have room behind your sectional for other things.
You can install the Atmos speakers in the higher part of the ceiling.
Your centre speaker can be mounted on a stand with the smaller screen. Your mains can also be closer together.
You never mentioned anything about subwoofers...
Thanks for the idea sigpig. I'll move things around and get a feel for what the sound and picture looks like if I make those changes
 

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The best place acoustically for your Main Listening Position (MLP) is at 1/3 or 2/3 room length. So 7 and bit feet or 14 and a bit more feet from the screen.
7' is gonna be too close for your preferred screen size so you should put it at 14' . But there still won't be enough room to put rear height speakers on the high ceiling.
This is a really compromised room and you will always have a compromised setup IMO.
I would reconsider using the smaller room - assuming it has no soffits/ducting etc - as you will end up with a better overall viewing and listening package with no compromises, except maybe the popcorn machine. And without being rude - are you really seriously considering all those compromises just so you can fit a popcorn machine ??

And you really need to listen to the advice given here about your screen size - make it smaller and sit closer for exactly the same viewing size and much improved viewing quality. And you have the room for a screen so I would also recommend an AT screen to get the centre speaker up high and behind where it should be. You can do a DIY Spandex screen for a couple of hundred dollars (or maybe less).
 

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If you are set on YOUR seating position and decided that's how it's going to be, I have another suggestion. You have a row of can lights in that soffit. Pull one out and see what kind of clearance you actually have in there. If you have clearance for a can light, you should have room for a speaker. You might be able to run two speakers in a row directly between the lights for the rear Atmos, then bring the front Atmos speakers out far enough in the high part of ceiling so that you can see them from your seating position, probably in line with the can lights closest to the "screen wall". This way the soffit won't be interfering with the sound reaching you. I replaced a couple of can lights in my basement with Atmos speakers. If you don't need that much lighting in there, you could do the same. Leave the center row of lights alone and replace the four corner lights with in-wall"s. It's just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If you are set on YOUR seating position and decided that's how it's going to be, I have another suggestion. You have a row of can lights in that soffit. Pull one out and see what kind of clearance you actually have in there. If you have clearance for a can light, you should have room for a speaker. You might be able to run two speakers in a row directly between the lights for the rear Atmos, then bring the front Atmos speakers out far enough in the high part of ceiling so that you can see them from your seating position. This way the soffit won't be interfering with the sound reaching you. It's just a thought.
That was my first thought too Spawn101, but those are LED lights that don't take up much space inside the soffit and don't have a can behind them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The best place acoustically for your Main Listening Position (MLP) is at 1/3 or 2/3 room length. So 7 and bit feet or 14 and a bit more feet from the screen.
7' is gonna be too close for your preferred screen size so you should put it at 14' . But there still won't be enough room to put rear height speakers on the high ceiling.
This is a really compromised room and you will always have a compromised setup IMO.
I would reconsider using the smaller room - assuming it has no soffits/ducting etc - as you will end up with a better overall viewing and listening package with no compromises, except maybe the popcorn machine. And without being rude - are you really seriously considering all those compromises just so you can fit a popcorn machine ??

And you really need to listen to the advice given here about your screen size - make it smaller and sit closer for exactly the same viewing size and much improved viewing quality. And you have the room for a screen so I would also recommend an AT screen to get the centre speaker up high and behind where it should be. You can do a DIY Spandex screen for a couple of hundred dollars (or maybe less).
Thanks for your feedback niterida. An AT screen is in my long term plan. We'll look into sitting closer and reduce the screen size.
 
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