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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,


Just purchased a Marantz 5002 AVR. I'm using a phantom center and cannot get any dialogue unless I use a virtual stereo mode. Unfortunately this virtual mode is 2.1 only and sends no signal to my back surrounds. I've toggled through all the available surround modes and no center dialogue unless I use 2.1 virtual stereo. Are the any AVR's that allow preferably True HD and/or Dolby Digital when using a phantom center. Thanks.
 

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I assume you mean a 5003.


If so, go to page 30 of the owner's manual. If you ran Audyssey, it will see that you have no center channel speaker and bypass it in the auto setup.


If you did the manual setup on page 33, you can set the center speaker to "None."


In either case, when you play back a multichannel source, the signal from the center channel will be mixed into the left and right speakers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Nope its a refurbished 5002 from Accessoriesforless and I did set center speaker to none. Have you run a phantom with the 5003? If so, maybe I can exchange for the newer model.


I found the following from another thread:

Okay, after 3 long, testy phone calls to Marantz, I've been assured by a product support tech that it is impossible to create a phantom center using Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby Digital TrueHD, regardless of how I connect the receiver to the speakers.


Is Dolby truly that stupid? Does that mean I'm forced to buy a no-longer in-production speaker to match my main speakers just so I can hear the dialogue on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? Is there no pre-amp that can definitely deal with this problem?
 

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Dolby digital decoder design allows the decoder to downmix and play back up to 7.1 channels with less then 8 speakers.


In other words, if you have a 7.1 Dolby True HD BD, but only a 5.1 speaker setup, the two back surround channels will be combined into the two side surround channels with no data lost.


Similarly, if you only have 5 speakers (no center), the decoder will split the center channel signal between the left and right speakers.


The same is true for DTS decoders.


If your AVR will not do this, it is an issue with Marantz and how they implemented the Dolby digital decoder. It is NOT an issue with Dolby.


Marantz is notorious for skimping on the DSP power required to do a lot of the current processing, particularly in the lower line models. I would not be surprised to find that this is the case here. Sorry.


I have an Onkyo TX-SR706 AVR which has no such limitation.
 

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I did a little more research into your AVR.


Here is the Marantz website on the SR5002:

http://us.marantz.com/Products/2207.asp


The Marantz SR5002 DOES NOT decode any of the high bitrate lossy codecs (Dolby Digital Plus or DTS HD-HiRes) or the high bitrate lossless codecs (Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA). It ONLY decodes the low bitrate Dolby Digital and DTS lossy codecs.


The only way for you to playback DD Plus/True HD or DTS HD-HiRes/MA is for your BD player to decode these codecs internally and send them to your AVR as multichannel PCM via HDMI or multichannel analog, whichever method the BD player supports. Since each channel is sent to the AVR as an individual signal, turning off the center channel WILL eliminate the audio from the center channel signal.


Bottom line is, you will need to buy a center channel speaker if you wish to hear all channels of the multichannel PCM stream/analog audio coming from your BD player.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 /forum/post/16991793


I did a little more research into your AVR.


Here is the Marantz website on the SR5002:

http://us.marantz.com/Products/2207.asp


The Marantz SR5002 DOES NOT decode any of the high bitrate lossy codecs (Dolby Digital Plus or DTS HD-HiRes) or the high bitrate lossless codecs (Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA). It ONLY decodes the low bitrate Dolby Digital and DTS lossy codecs.


The only way for you to playback DD Plus/True HD or DTS HD-HiRes/MA is for your BD player to decode these codecs internally and send them to your AVR as multichannel PCM via HDMI or multichannel analog, whichever method the BD player supports. Since each channel is sent to the AVR as an individual signal, turning off the center channel WILL eliminate the audio from the center channel signal.


Bottom line is, you will need to buy a center channel speaker if you wish to hear all channels of the multichannel PCM stream/analog audio coming from your BD player.

Another "limitation" of PCM versus bitstreaming.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So basically any reciever that does not process the lossless codecs will be unable to create a phantom center/surround experience since you have to send via PCM from the BlueRay player. However the Onkyo SR 706 does not process the lossless codecs, yet Bluesky reports that he has no phantom/surround limitations?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgman /forum/post/16993396


So basically any reciever that does not process the lossless codecs will be unable to create a phantom center/surround experience since you have to send via PCM from the BlueRay player. However the Onkyo SR 706 does not process the lossless codecs, yet Bluesky reports that he has no phantom/surround limitations?

Ummm, yes it does. I don't know where you got that idea.
 

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Onkyo SR 706

* 100 W/Ch Minimum into 8 Ohms, 20 Hz¿20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 Channels Driven, FTC

* HDMI (v.1.3a to Support Deep Color, x.v. Color, LipSync, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master)

* THX Select2 Plus Certified

* Audyssey MultEQ to Correct Room Acoustic Problems and to Calibrate Speakers

* HDMI Video Upscaling (to 1080p) with Faroudja DCDi Cinema and Upconversion

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR706...0183145&sr=8-1
 

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hey guys,

I have the above equipment (w/Polk Audio speakers, & Subs--tho' I'll prob. be going after a PA-120 for my Main/Front Sub), & am having problems trying to properly get PCM Audio on those Blurays (Black Hawk Down, 1st one I've had with that Audio option). In my BD-35, I've been told everything from setting the Primary Audio to PCM for DD True-HD, Bitstream for DTS-HD MA, & having the Secondary Audio set to ON - along with, on the AVR's GUI, the "Listening Mode Preset" (#5 in the menu) under DVD, the 1st listing you have is "ANALOG/PCM", where I've been told that I should select "DIRECT" there, others say "LAST VALID" - But, i'm not sure if that's the right area though because when I scroll down (DD, DTS, D.F. 2ch, D.F. Mono) the next page that comes up is MULTICH PCM -- & I've tried having That on "DIRECT", then trying LAST VALID, as well what you would THINK to be the correct selection: "MULTICH" - but No. When I go to watch the movie, I see "pcm" in little letters next to DVD, with MULTICH below DVD, and ALL the speaker boxes lit up. Here's where it gets tricky. No matter what I've tried here, it only seems to play Audio thru the front Left & Right speakers (??!!), & again, ALL the speaker boxes Are Lit UP.


So mainly i'm hoping someone out there has the Same ONKYO 706, the Same Panasonic BD-35, & has answers for me.


"I'll pay ya' for it, what the f..." (Diamond Dave, circa 1978
)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerodude73 /forum/post/17002856


hey guys,

I have the above equipment (w/Polk Audio speakers, & Subs--tho' I'll prob. be going after a PA-120 for my Main/Front Sub), & am having problems trying to properly get PCM Audio on those Blurays (Black Hawk Down, 1st one I've had with that Audio option). In my BD-35, I've been told everything from setting the Primary Audio to PCM for DD True-HD, Bitstream for DTS-HD MA, & having the Secondary Audio set to ON - along with, on the AVR's GUI, the "Listening Mode Preset" (#5 in the menu) under DVD, the 1st listing you have is "ANALOG/PCM", where I've been told that I should select "DIRECT" there, others say "LAST VALID" - But, i'm not sure if that's the right area though because when I scroll down (DD, DTS, D.F. 2ch, D.F. Mono) the next page that comes up is MULTICH PCM -- & I've tried having That on "DIRECT", then trying LAST VALID, as well what you would THINK to be the correct selection: "MULTICH" - but No. When I go to watch the movie, I see "pcm" in little letters next to DVD, with MULTICH below DVD, and ALL the speaker boxes lit up. Here's where it gets tricky. No matter what I've tried here, it only seems to play Audio thru the front Left & Right speakers (??!!), & again, ALL the speaker boxes Are Lit UP.


So mainly i'm hoping someone out there has the Same ONKYO 706, the Same Panasonic BD-35, & has answers for me.


"I'll pay ya' for it, what the f..." (Diamond Dave, circa 1978
)

Hopefully you are using HDMI between the BD35 and the 706.


First of all, you don't have to change anything on the BD35 to play back a BD that has a multichannel PCM soundtrack. The bitstream/pcm selection is ONLY if you want the 35 to decode Dolby Digital or DTS internally (PCM) or pass the native bitstream to your AVR (bitstream). Set the 35 to bitstream since the 706 decodes all flavors of Dolby Digital and DTS. You are done with the BD35.


The Analog/PCM listening mode on the 706 is for analog recordings like records (remember those?) or CD playback. Also for non-HD tv broadcasts. For BDs you are only concerned with the the various Dolby Digital and DTS codecs and multichannel PCM. I use THX processing with DPL IIX for all of those (I have a 7.1 system). There is no "correct" setting for each of the listening modes. You can use any setting you like or that sounds good to you.


The owner's manual for each unit explain things pretty well if you take the time to read and understand them.


If you have more questions, go to the 706 forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062186


or the Panasonic BD35/55 forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1075161


Also the Audyssey forum if you haven't figured out how to properly set up Audyssey:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421
 

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Hopefully you are using HDMI between the BD35 and the 706.

Yes I am.

First of all, you don't have to change anything on the BD35 to play back a BD that has a multichannel PCM soundtrack. The bitstream/pcm selection is ONLY if you want the 35 to decode Dolby Digital or DTS internally (PCM) or pass the native bitstream to your AVR (bitstream). Set the 35 to bitstream since the 706 decodes all flavors of Dolby Digital and DTS. You are done with the BD35.

So, in my BD-35, I Keep the "Primary Audio" for True-HD AND DTS-HD Both set to BITSTREAM, & "Secondary Audio" set to ON or OFF?

The Analog/PCM listening mode on the 706 is for analog recordings like records (remember those?) or CD playback. Also for non-HD tv broadcasts. For BDs you are only concerned with the the various Dolby Digital and DTS codecs and multichannel PCM. I use THX processing with DPL IIX for all of those (I have a 7.1 system). There is no "correct" setting for each of the listening modes. You can use any setting you like or that sounds good to you.

Ok, thanks - I had a feeling the "Analog/PCM", even though it came up under DVD, wasn't for DVD, per se' - I can Try the "THX Processing with DPL IIX" as you suggest (Yes, I have 7.1 also; actually 7.2 for those of us with Dual Subs sometimes are fond of noting
) - But the MAIN problem I was trying to figure out was when these settings are done, even though the AVR display shows, as I noted above, the little "pcm" Next to "DVD", with MULTICH Beneath it, is that I was only getting Audio from the Front L/R Speakers (even though All of the 5 speaker & LFE boxes were Lit Up). THAT IS/WAS the Main reason for my Post here. I've heard/read that PCM MULTICH Audio should sound really Good/Loud, if you will & I would LIKE to hear it for myself.

The owner's manual for each unit explain things pretty well if you take the time to read and understand them.

I have the owners' manuals for both but the 706's for some reason is in French & Spanish (?!) with only the Sections or Headings of certain parts of it in English, so i'll prob. have to click on the links below tomorrow nite (Sat.) after work.

If you have more questions, go to the 706 forum or the Panasonic BD35/55 forum. Also the Audyssey forum if you haven't figured out how to properly set up Audyssey.

Yes, I've used this many times, but was never really happy with the results, & bought a Digital SPL Meter to dial my spkrs' in at 75db's. I watched "INDEPENDENCE DAY" (DTS-HD MA!!) Friday nite after work & that was one Killer Audio Track for a 1996 Movie!! -- Thanks again for your suggestions, I hope they point me in the right direction.
 

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Aerodude - this is almost certainly a problem with your receiver set-up. Reading the English version of the manual should fix you right up. The Onkyo owners threads in the Amps & Receiver forums have lots of information as well.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerodude73;17003623

Good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerodude73;17003623

Never use Last Valid. It means exactly that. Whatever setting was used the last time is what is used the next time. If you had a wrong setting before, you will have a wrong setting again. I don't know why you were getting only left and right sound from multichannel pcm. You obviously had something set wrong. What, I cannot tell from your description. Not to disappoint you, but a multichannel PCM soundtrack will not sound significantly different than a decoded DD True HD or DTS HD-Master Audio. Once DD and DTS are decoded, they are PCM also and since they are lossless, there is no difference between them and the PCM track from which they originated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerodude73;17003623[COLOR="blue" /forum/post/0


I have the owners' manuals for both but the 706's for some reason is in French & Spanish (?!) with only the Sections or Headings of certain parts of it in English, so i'll prob. have to click on the links below tomorrow nite (Sat.) after work.

Download the English owner's manual here:

http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=d

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerodude73;17003623[COLOR="blue" /forum/post/0


Yes, I've used this many times, but was never really happy with the results, & bought a Digital SPL Meter to dial my spkrs' in at 75db's. I watched "INDEPENDENCE DAY" (DTS-HD MA!!) Friday nite after work & that was one Killer Audio Track for a 1996 Movie!! -- Thanks again for your suggestions, I hope they point me in the right direction.[/color]

If you have tried setting up Audyssey and did not like it you


a. Do not know what flat, reference quality audio sounds like,

b. Your speakers are not positioned properly,

c. You did not set it up properly.


The Audyssey Set Up Guide will tell you how to do it correctly:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895


A digital SPL meter is the wrong meter to use. Analog is better. In any case, the Audyssey microphone is more accurate than any SPL meter.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 /forum/post/17006354


Good.


If you want the 706 to decode the bitstream, than yes. However, if you turn secondary audio on, and secondary audio is present, DD and DTS will revert to the lossy codecs. To avoid that, set them both to pcm. I don't use secondary audio so I have them both set to bitstream.


Never use Last Valid. It means exactly that. Whatever setting was used the last time is what is used the next time. If you had a wrong setting before, you will have a wrong setting again. I don't know why you were getting only left and right sound from multichannel pcm. You obviously had something set wrong. What, I cannot tell from your description. Not to disappoint you, but a multichannel PCM soundtrack will not sound significantly different than a decoded DD True HD or DTS HD-Master Audio. Once DD and DTS are decoded, they are PCM also and since they are lossless, there is no difference between them and the PCM track from which they originated.



If you have tried setting up Audyssey and did not like it you


a. Do not know what flat, reference quality audio sounds like - Wrong, my ears are fine

b. Your speakers are not positioned properly -Wrong again, they are fine. This isn't my 1st time to the rodeo pard'ner.

c. You did not set it up properly. Wrong again - Thanks for your EXPERT ANALYSIS & "Helpful" attempts.



The Audyssey Set Up Guide will tell you how to do it correctly:

I Know how to use Audyssey - I just don't agree 100% with its' findings. Again, I'm not Alone in not being totally onboard the Audyssey Train.


A digital SPL meter is the wrong meter to use. Analog is better. In any case, the Audyssey microphone is more accurate than any SPL meter.
Wow, Shockingly, WRONG Again. You love to write what YOU THINK Everyone should do, w/out any reasons for it. "Digital is Wrong. Analog is Better" - Because...??? Blanket statements can kiss my A___. Again, good for your OPINIONS but how could Analog be better when Digital obviously is more ACCURATE for readings? I know people who have tried both or owned both, & they come around to Digital for the same reason; Accuracy. - In closing, thanks for your time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerodude73 /forum/post/17009355

Wow, Shockingly, WRONG Again. You love to write what YOU THINK Everyone should do, w/out any reasons for it. "Digital is Wrong. Analog is Better" - Because...??? Blanket statements can kiss my A___. Again, good for your OPINIONS but how could Analog be better when Digital obviously is more ACCURATE for readings? I know people who have tried both or owned both, & they come around to Digital for the same reason; Accuracy. - In closing, thanks for your time.

Kind of at a loss to understand the sudden and nasty personal attack. You are a new member with a grand total of three posts which I answered and provided you with information that you were lacking or did not understand.


Given that your 706 owner's manual was in French/Spanish, I am impressed that you were able to properly set up and calibrate your system with Audyssey, yet could not figure out how the various listening modes worked and what they meant.


In any case, you're welcome. I'm glad I spent all the time I did trying to help you out.



Oh, and just a few minutes research on this site would explain to you why an analog SPL meter is preferred over a digital one for setting up speakers in a room and is not just my opinion.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 /forum/post/17009420


Kind of at a loss to understand the sudden and nasty personal attack. You are a new member with a grand total of three posts which I answered and provided you with information that you were lacking or did not understand.

New member HERE to This forum yes but I've read many threads here, been directed to it from other ones for usually reliable or helpful information; but not new to HT nor to similar sites as well, & if you felt it was Sudden & NASTY (?!), well I didn't realize it was Nasty.


Given that your 706 owner's manual was in French/Spanish, I am impressed that you were able to properly set up and calibrate your system with Audyssey, yet could not figure out how the various listening modes worked and what they meant.

You were Impressed? Wow, thank you so much...



In any case, you're welcome. I'm glad I spent all the time I did trying to help you out.



Oh, and just a few minutes research on this site would explain to you why an analog SPL meter is preferred over a digital one for setting up speakers in a room and is not just my opinion.

See, this is what I meant by not just throwing an opinion out as it were the Only one, as it seemed you did above. You should have wrote this the First time, but whatever. Some may think Analog is best, some think otherwise. I'm in the latter. I'm done here.
 
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