[wirelesscop]

Hey Everyone,


Just when I thought that I had all the "jargon" down... I came across the terms "UPCONVERSION" and "VIDEO SWITCHING."


I know, probably pretty basic stuff.


I have set up, a Mitsubishi HC3000U projector, Infinity TSS1100 speaker package

and currently just a basic DVD / VHS combo unit. I haven't hooked up anything yet as I am still trying to decide what receiver to get. I thought that I had my mind set on the ONKYO TXSR604. From what I have heard, it's a great piece of equipment and one that carries a pretty cheap price tag considering it has HDMI.


Well, I was browsing the forums and started reading up a little and I came across the terms: UPCONVERSION and VIDEO SWITCHING.


What is VIDEO SWITCHING?


Is their also "AUDIO SWITCHING?"


Is their AUDIO "upconversion" (AND) VIDEO "upconversion?"


What do I actually need HDMI for? I thought that all the HDMI connection was good for was to make connecting a bunch of cables easier and streamlined into ONE connection.


From what I had read "upconversion" was taking a poor resolution VIDEO source and "converting" it to a better picture. Does upconversion have anything to do with audio?


Sorry for the basic questions...


Thaks for your time and help!

 

[Bob Pariseau]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wirelesscop /forum/post/0


Hey Everyone,


Just when I thought that I had all the "jargon" down... I came across the terms "UPCONVERSION" and "VIDEO SWITCHING."


I know, probably pretty basic stuff.


I have set up, a Mitsubishi HC3000U projector, Infinity TSS1100 speaker package

and currently just a basic DVD / VHS combo unit. I haven't hooked up anything yet as I am still trying to decide what receiver to get. I thought that I had my mind set on the ONKYO TXSR604. From what I have heard, it's a great piece of equipment and one that carries a pretty cheap price tag considering it has HDMI.


Well, I was browsing the forums and started reading up a little and I came across the terms: UPCONVERSION and VIDEO SWITCHING.


What is VIDEO SWITCHING?


Is their also "AUDIO SWITCHING?"


Is their AUDIO "upconversion" (AND) VIDEO "upconversion?"


What do I actually need HDMI for? I thought that all the HDMI connection was good for was to make connecting a bunch of cables easier and streamlined into ONE connection.


From what I had read "upconversion" was taking a poor resolution VIDEO source and "converting" it to a better picture. Does upconversion have anything to do with audio?


Sorry for the basic questions...


Thaks for your time and help!

Video switching is the ability to select from several video sources and have that routed to the video output.


Video "upconversion", more correctly called "transcoding", is the ability to select one STYLE of video signal and change it to a different style for output AT THE SAME RESOLUTION. For example, select an analog Component video input signal at 480p and send it out as a digital HDMI video output signal but still at 480p. This is primarily a convenience feature in that you don't have to run multiple types of video cable to your TV.


Since receivers don't usually send audio out for further processing, there's not really an audio up-conversion feature, but since HDMI cabling can also carry audio to your TV, you might have audio output on that.


Video "de-interlacing" and "scaling" are processes involved in changing a video input signal at one resolution into a different resolution for output.


If you think about it, upconversion, de-interlacing, and scaling already exist inside your TV. I.e., it can accept video cables of different types and will present whatever comes in on screen as an image that more or less fills the screen. It does this with its own internal conversion, de-interlacing, and scaling circuits.


People pay for de-interlacing and scaling in other devices -- upscaling DVD players or receivers for example -- in the belief that those devices will DO A BETTER JOB than their TV already does. Sometimes they are correct.


HDMI cabling carries both digital video and audio in one cable -- along with copy protection stuff that makes the industry happy but does nothing worthwhile for you.


Digital video and audio are useful for maintaining best quality of a signal between devices.


Because of the copy protection stuff, the industry is trying to force people to adopt HDMI by limiting certain new features to HDMI only.


So for example, if you want to get the best quality digital audio from new HD-DVD or Blue Ray players you have no choice but to use HDMI connections.


HDMI comes in different version levels. If you have HDMI V1.1 or higher you should be in good shape.

--Bob

 

[jpomp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau /forum/post/0


Video switching is the ability to select from several video sources and have that routed to the video output.


Video "upconversion", more correctly called "transcoding", is the ability to select one STYLE of video signal and change it to a different style for output AT THE SAME RESOLUTION. For example, select an analog Component video input signal at 480p and send it out as a digital HDMI video output signal but still at 480p. This is primarily a convenience feature in that you don't have to run multiple types of video cable to your TV.


Since receivers don't usually send audio out for further processing, there's not really an audio up-conversion feature, but since HDMI cabling can also carry audio to your TV, you might have audio output on that.


Video "de-interlacing" and "scaling" are processes involved in changing a video input signal at one resolution into a different resolution for output.


If you think about it, upconversion, de-interlacing, and scaling already exist inside your TV. I.e., it can accept video cables of different types and will present whatever comes in on screen as an image that more or less fills the screen. It does this with its own internal conversion, de-interlacing, and scaling circuits.


People pay for de-interlacing and scaling in other devices -- upscaling DVD players or receivers for example -- in the belief that those devices will DO A BETTER JOB than their TV already does. Sometimes they are correct.


HDMI cabling carries both digital video and audio in one cable -- along with copy protection stuff that makes the industry happy but does nothing worthwhile for you.


Digital video and audio are useful for maintaining best quality of a signal between devices.


Because of the copy protection stuff, the industry is trying to force people to adopt HDMI by limiting certain new features to HDMI only.


So for example, if you want to get the best quality digital audio from new HD-DVD or Blue Ray players you have no choice but to use HDMI connections.


HDMI comes in different version levels. If you have HDMI V1.1 or higher you should be in good shape.

--Bob

I hope this question fits well here...


So then what is, on a reciever, HDMI upconversion? What I'm getting at is, I'm looking at the Yamaha recievers and trying to determine which model RX or HTR I want. One of the spec items is HDMI upconversion and it goes 480p deinterlace, scale to 480p/720p/1080i, or blank. If I'm buying a 1080p projector, do I need to be concerned about this spec and make sure I buy one of the recievers that have the highest available for upconversion?


Thanks.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

HDMI upconversion on the RX-V2700 converts composite, s-video or component to HDMI and can upscale it as well.


This allows you to use your RX as a "hub" for both audio and video. I use this to connect my XBox-360 and Tivo to my display using a single HDMI connection to the display. The XBox 360 and Tivo are connecting with component cables.

 

[Bob Pariseau]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jpomp /forum/post/0


I hope this question fits well here...


So then what is, on a reciever, HDMI upconversion? What I'm getting at is, I'm looking at the Yamaha recievers and trying to determine which model RX or HTR I want. One of the spec items is HDMI upconversion and it goes 480p deinterlace, 720 deinterlace, and 1080p deinterlace. If I'm buying a 1080p projector, do I need to be concerned about this spec and make sure I buy one of the recievers that have 1080p deinterlace for upconversion?


Thanks.

The marketing guys are quite deliberately confusing the terms here to try to sell some of their less capable product.


HDMI upconversion should only mean that other styles of input video (i.e., S-video or Component video) can be output as HDMI at the same resolution.


HDMI scaling should only mean that the HDMI output signal can be changed to a different resolution from the input signal.


However some marketing materials use the term upconversion for both.


Also be aware that some receivers come with significant "gotchas" in this stuff. For example only 480p Component input can be sent out as HDMI output or some such. You need to pull the owner's manual off the manufacturer's web site to look for such fine print.


It also helps to buy from a dealer who has an easy return policy if you get the receiver home and find it doesn't work the way you thought it would work. Even if the owner's manual is in error it is unlikely the manufacturer will change the product to match the manual -- they will simply send you a "corrected" manual page.


If you have a TV that ACCEPTS a 1080p input and DISPLAYS IT on a physical 1080p matrix -- its "native" resolution -- then you definitely want to be sure your receiver can handle 1080p/60Hz video. Whether you also want the receiver to scale lower resolutions to that is a different question. You might be satisfied with just passing the input to the TV at its original resolution and letting the TV take it from there. But since there are now 1080p source devices, you certainly want to be sure you won't lose their resolution when going through the receiver.

--Bob

 

[jpomp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/0


HDMI upconversion on the RX-V2700 converts composite, s-video or component to HDMI and can upscale it as well.


This allows you to use your RX as a "hub" for both audio and video. I use this to connect my XBox-360 and Tivo to my display using a single HDMI connection to the display. The XBox 360 and Tivo are connecting with component cables.

Sounds like then, if I'm using a 1080p tv, I would want to make sure it's 1080 if I'm going to use the reciever as the "hub"? Otherwise HDMI directly to the video source for any 1080p assurance.


Thanks.

 

[Bob Pariseau]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jpomp /forum/post/0


Sounds like then, if I'm using a 1080p tv, I would want to make sure it's 1080 if I'm going to use the reciever as the "hub"? Otherwise HDMI directly to the video source for any 1080p assurance.


Thanks.

There are some complexities here.


First of all, don't confuse 1080i with 1080p. 1080i, one of the standard HDTV broadcast resolutions, is an interlaced signal. 1080p is the "progressive" signal that comes from de-interlacing that or from a source that was originally recorded that way. It has TWICE the information content.


Second, not all TVs that ACCEPT a 1080p signal actually display it that way. Some even down scale it to 720p for display. You need to check what your TV changes incoming signals to for display.


Third, not all TVs that DISPLAY a 1080p result actually accept that as a signal. Some will only take up to 1080i, and then they de-interlace it internally (usally not very well) to make the 1080p result. Believe it or not, some of these sets have been tested and found to reduce the signal to 540p (throwing away a bunch of the resolution) on the way to producing 1080p.


Fourth, not all 1080p is created equal. Some updates 60 times a second and some updates 24 times a second. The slower rate is used for film-based sources. There are TVs like some of the new Pioneer plasmas that will only accept up to a 1080p/24Hz signal.


I'd like to say there are some easy answers here, but there aren't. You really do have to study the details of each device and not just assume it "does the right thing".

--Bob

 

[jpomp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau /forum/post/0


The marketing guys are quite deliberately confusing the terms here to try to sell some of their less capable product.


HDMI upconversion should only mean that other styles of input video (i.e., S-video or Component video) can be output as HDMI at the same resolution.


HDMI scaling should only mean that the HDMI output signal can be changed to a different resolution from the input signal.


However some marketing materials use the term upconversion for both.


Also be aware that some receivers come with significant "gotchas" in this stuff. For example only 480p Component input can be sent out as HDMI output or some such. You need to pull the owner's manual off the manufacturer's web site to look for such fine print.


It also helps to buy from a dealer who has an easy return policy if you get the receiver home and find it doesn't work the way you thought it would work. Even if the owner's manual is in error it is unlikely the manufacturer will change the product to match the manual -- they will simply send you a "corrected" manual page.


If you have a TV that ACCEPTS a 1080p input and DISPLAYS IT on a physical 1080p matrix -- its "native" resolution -- then you definitely want to be sure your receiver can handle 1080p/60Hz video. Whether you also want the receiver to scale lower resolutions to that is a different question. You might be satisfied with just passing the input to the TV at its original resolution and letting the TV take it from there. But since there are now 1080p source devices, you certainly want to be sure you won't lose their resolution when going through the receiver.

--Bob

This sounds like then I must choose from the the RX-2600 , or the RX-2700 then if I want to "hub" through the reciever with HDTV and for DVD PASS by the reciever and go directly to the 1080p tv...i think i got it now...thanks.

 

[JOHNnDENVER]

I sure thought the RX-2700 passed 1080p just fine, I could be wrong, it was one of several I considered when purchasing recently.

 

[jpomp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER /forum/post/0


I sure thought the RX-2700 passed 1080p just fine, I could be wrong, it was one of several I considered when purchasing recently.

You're right, it does. But down in the spec list, it makes it look confusing by only saying "scale to 480p/720p/1080i"


THANKS.


Which one did you finally decide on Mr. Denver?

 

[MichaelJHuman]

The 1700 passes 1080p. Its conversion options are more limited than the 2700s. It may only deinterlace 480i component to 480p over HDMI. Perfectly fine for most people's needs though.

 

[jpomp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/0


The 1700 passes 1080p. Its conversion options are more limited than the 2700s. It may only deinterlace 480i component to 480p over HDMI. Perfectly fine for most people's needs though.

But doesn't 480i/p over HDMI defeat the purpose of HDTV and, moreso, BlueRay/HDDVD? Or am I confusing something else? I thought you want 720p/1080i for HDTV and 1080p for HD DVD/BlueRay?


Sorry for being thick-headed here, but I just about have it understood. Thank you for clarifying this...

 

[M Code]

A couple of clarifications..

Not all video displays can handle 480i (analog) viedo stream through HDMI, as many people think.

Therefore an AVR needs to have an interlacer to revise the 480i to 480p, then the video display can handle 480p fine through HDMI.


Another point..

Certain AVRs provide only HDMI switching, in this instance the HDMI source input is simply switched to an HDMI output.. NO processing is done..

This design approach is lower cost than a HDMI repeater but also works quite well even with HD DVD sources..

In that example, the HD video is routed into the AVR by HDMI and output straight-through by HDMI to the video display.. And the HD audio is transcoded down slightly usually to DTS..

And handled by S/PDIF such as optical or coaxial to the AVR, the sonic quality may be down a notch compared to a more costly HDMI repeater circuit where the audio is done by LPCM.. But it is still pretty darn good..


Just my $.02 worth..

 

[wirelesscop]

Wow...thanks for all the replies and information.


In a nut shell... Will the Onkyo TXSR604 receiver work well with the HC3000U projector as far as image and sound quality? Or should I look for a receiver that has more features? From what I read, the Onkyo has HDMI v1.1 (2 In/1 Out), HDTV-Ready Component (3 In/1 Out).


Do I need more? What would more connections do for me?


I don't have an HD / Blue-Ray dvd player.


Would a receiver with more features / HDMI inputs / outputs make that much of a difference with the setup I have?


I am also using the Infinity TSS1100 speaker system.


I just don't want to waste my money on the Onkyo TXSR604 if it would be better spent on something else.


Any suggestions?


Thanks!

 

[leftheaded]

i'm new to this also, and this thread answers questions i was about to ask too.. thanks!!


one thing i'm still wondering is whether receivers can perform the task of 3:2 pulldown properly? my tv is 1080p and all my sources are sent via HDMI (3 so far and about to have a 4th). i'm really happy with the scaler in my tv (sony v2500), and really only started looking at AVRs because i ran out of HDMI inputs on the tv itself (and its time to get the surround speakers).


at first i was just thinking about audio features on an AVR, and just wanting pass-through for the video (1080/60p).... but now i'm wondering if i could get a receiver that does 3:2 pulldown and deinterlacing better than my display (those are the tests i saw hdguru or hometheatermag show my tv "fail")


sorry, to hijack.. thanks for the help!!

 

[chpwaman]



Quote:
This sounds like then I must choose from the the RX-2600 , or the RX-2700 then if I want to "hub" through the reciever with HDTV and for DVD PASS by the reciever and go directly to the 1080p tv...i think i got it now...thanks.

You won't want to go with the 2600, it won't pass 1080p. If you decide to upgrade your DVD to a 1080p model or even HD-DVD/Blu-Ray down the road, you might consider the Denon 3806 as it will pass 1080p. It won't upscale, but in the future most of your sources should be at a minimum 720p/1080i which is the best the 2700 would upscale for you anyway. If you use the VCR a lot, you might want to stick with the 2700 to upscale the image.

 

[MichaelJHuman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jpomp /forum/post/0


But doesn't 480i/p over HDMI defeat the purpose of HDTV and, moreso, BlueRay/HDDVD? Or am I confusing something else? I thought you want 720p/1080i for HDTV and 1080p for HD DVD/BlueRay?


Sorry for being thick-headed here, but I just about have it understood. Thank you for clarifying this...

If you have a DVD player, game console, VCR or other 480i source connected over composite, component or s-video it's convenient to deinterlace it from 480i to 480p and pass it over HDMI. That way you can connect a single HDMI cable to your display and use your receiver as an audio/video switcher. Not all displays can handle 480i over HDMI which is why it's helpful if the receiver can deinterlace as well as upconvert 480i from non HDMI sources to HDMI.


Some receivers can better than, and scale to 720p or 1080i. This is not as useful as you might think. Most people buying high end receivers have a large screen TV with a fixed pixel display such as DLP, LCD or plasma (projecters and CRT based rear projection sets being an exception.) These displays must scale to their native resolution. If you set your RX to scale to 720p and sent that to a plasma TV with a resolution of 1024x780 you are scaling the image multiple times...probably not what you intended.