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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Recently in a discussion with someone, he mentioned that high definition DVD's may be available soon. Is this guy full of crap or is this a reality?


I did some searches online and there is no such product that I could come up with.
 

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From what I have heard here, and read elsewhere, they exist in concept.


However, I don't foresee them anytime soon. Very little demand right now. Last I heard, speculation says 3-5 years.


Bill
 

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He may have been confusing it with the SuperBit DVD's to be out soon. These just use a slightly higher bit rate, made available by not using as much for extras (dumpware) and a little constiction in the sound track(s).


You can search for SuperBit on the forums here.


- Tom


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Here is a possible entry in the HDTV DVD equation.
http://www.Constellation3D.com/


for data storage in general it is a huge leap in capacity for DVD.


Stock is in the dumpster right now, but they have over 160 patents on the technology.


P R Joy


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HDjunky
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Barista:
However, I don't foresee them anytime soon. Very little demand right now. Last I heard, speculation says 3-5 years.
Demand is not the problem. There will be 2 million HDTV sets sold by the end of the year, and that doesn't count front projectors and computer monitors. All those people that won't buy a STB for "lack of content" would jump at the chance of a consumer HD-DVD player with full studio support. The problem is the studios won't support it. They will want to milk the current DVD format to the fullest before allowing you to buy all the titles again in a higher format. Not to mention that without strong copy-protection there will be no HD-DVD at all. There is plenty of demand, only there's no supply.


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C
 

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vruiz: I agree. Milk, milk milk. They want to wait until we all have players, then we can buy them all over again.


I remember reading about those FMDs, however they don't support the speed to record HDTV in real time (or play it back?).


Would be great if they could use a technology like that for a removable media PVR! Man, I like the PVR concept, but I hate having the content limited to a physical machine.


A PVR that archived everything to a removable FMD would rock!


Bill
 

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This is not a studio or content owner problem. presently the technology exists only in the lab. ATSC rates eat 8GB per hour. Currently the maximum storage os 17GB with dual side/dual layer.


Two things need to happen for HD DVD to become cost effective. Either a different compression system, MPEG4 or Wavelet or some cost effective advancements in blue laser technology.


This will happen but it may take a few years.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie:
Two things need to happen for HD DVD to become cost effective. Either a different compression system, MPEG4 or Wavelet or some cost effective advancements in blue laser technology.
My guess is that the MPEG-4 chip that exist now can do HD. With its higher compression, it could put HD on DVD right now with existing storage and data rates.


Their claim is six times more compression than MPEG-2 for the same picture quality. If that applies to HDTV, then the data rate would be less than 3.3 Mbps and a storage of less than 3GB for two hours of video.


Its not the standard HDTV format, but with a DVI output, it does not matter what compression format is used.
 

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Your all talking High def DVDs but when I stop my picture in pause, it looks like a digital picture from a digtal camera. How can you top a picture from a digital camera, with no visable scanning lines present at all, even when you press pause.


All I did was to connect the best cables that www.bettercables.com

has for sale 'Silver Serpents'. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


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Hob for Hobby
 

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Both Sony and one other company (JVC, I think) demonstrated working models of these at the last CES. Should Sony decide to come to market with a player, I should think that they could do it even with most of the other studio owners hanging back, given the breath of the collection of material that they could release on their own.


Check out this press release from CES 2001, particularly the bit about "DVR-Blue". Not only an HD disc, but a recordable HD disc. Expected to ship in mid-2002 at that press-release. It will be DTCP compliant, of course http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif .


-- Mike Scott


[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 08-24-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I agree. I wish there would be a way to boycott the studios to teach them a lesson.


As usual, it looks like the technology is viable, but playing politics is more important.


Thanks for the Constellation link, a CD size disk that holds 100 gigs, that's quite something...

Quote:
Originally posted by vruiz:
The problem is the studios won't support it. They will want to milk the current DVD format to the fullest before allowing you to buy all the titles again in a higher format.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
And now that I thought about it, owning stock in a company like this may not be a bad idea. Of course research is needed to make sure they won't be out of business tommorow, but if their products are viable, their stock may go through the roof...

Quote:
Originally posted by Prjoy:
Here is a possible entry in the HDTV DVD equation.
http://www.Constellation3D.com/


for data storage in general it is a huge leap in capacity for DVD.


Stock is in the dumpster right now, but they have over 160 patents on the technology.


P R Joy

 

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I see no reason why even a blue laser system couldn't be incorporated within a dual laser system for backward compatibility.
 

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Quote:
This is not a studio or content owner problem. presently the technology exists only in the lab. ATSC rates eat 8GB per hour. Currently the maximum storage os 17GB with dual side/dual layer.

Two things need to happen for HD DVD to become cost effective. Either a different compression system, MPEG4 or Wavelet or some cost effective advancements in blue laser technology.


This will happen but it may take a few years.
It might take a few years for them to be officially released but I suspect it's doable now by any college student with a DVD burner and something to record.


Imagine. The ATSC stream is supposed to be 19.3 mbps or about 8.7 GB/hour. But on this board folks have speculated that movies (not sports) are being transmitted at only about 13-14 mbps. If so, then after stripping off the ATSC transport overhead you would have a 2 hour movie take up maybe 12.6 GB, already fitting on DVD-18.


But if you took the time for a 2 pass encoder to recompress to mpeg-4 you might achieve almost a 3:1 further compression without losing much more quality. This could easily fit on one of those 4.75 DVD-R's with no problem. It would need a very fast computer to play it but I think the drives are fast enough to play it in real time now, if the decoder could keep up.


- Tom




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The Sony blue laser system means an entirely new blue laser player which will likely be incompatible with ordinary DVDs. The much higher capacity CDDD red laser HD DVD player will be backwards compatible--i.e. will play ordinary DVDs. It is most probably the HD DVD technology of the future, which is why AOL Warner--the developer/promoter of our current DVD system--has bought into it.

Cheers. Don
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by trbarry:
It might take a few years for them to be officially released but I suspect it's doable now by any college student with a DVD burner and something to record.


Imagine. The ATSC stream is supposed to be 19.3 mbps or about 8.7 GB/hour. But on this board folks have speculated that movies (not sports) are being transmitted at only about 13-14 mbps. If so, then after stripping off the ATSC transport overhead you would have a 2 hour movie take up maybe 12.6 GB, already fitting on DVD-18.


But if you took the time for a 2 pass encoder to recompress to mpeg-4 you might achieve almost a 3:1 further compression without losing much more quality. This could easily fit on one of those 4.75 DVD-R's with no problem. It would need a very fast computer to play it but I think the drives are fast enough to play it in real time now, if the decoder could keep up.


- Tom

MPEG4 is far from being ready for prime time. Some of us are supporting Wavelet as an alternative. Currently we compress HD anywhere from 50mbs down to 17mbs for use in hard disk players. These devices are used extensivily in theme parks.


We are the one of the largest DVD mastering as well as the largest HDTV poroduction facility. I can tell you HD DVD is a at least two years away. We are doing a lot of R&D with non-broadcast HDTV compression for both DVD and digital cinema. Currently you can't get good results below 17mbs.


aka Glimmie

Manager, Systems Engineering

Laser Pacific Media Corporation

 

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Quote:
MPEG4 is far from being ready for prime time. Some of us are supporting Wavelet as an alternative. Currently we compress HD anywhere from 50mbs down to 17mbs for use in hard disk players. These devices are used extensivily in theme parks.


We are the one of the largest DVD mastering as well as the largest HDTV poroduction facility. I can tell you HD DVD is a at least two years away. We are doing a lot of R&D with non-broadcast HDTV compression for both DVD and digital cinema. Currently you can't get good results below 17mbs.
Glimmie -


That's fairly depressing. That might mean any ATSC station with at least one sub channel can not get 'good results'.


Do you have any feel yet for what improvement in compression ratios is available using wavelets instead of MPEG4 and still getting good results?


- Tom



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Quote:


That's fairly depressing. That might mean any ATSC station with at least one sub channel can not get 'good results'.
The FCC's experts committee testing the ATSC system in the mid-1990s found the data rate is key. An excerpt from their explanation of table 3.2 in the committee report : -- John
Quote:
The expert observers conducted tests to see how image quality deteriorated as channel capacity was reduced by transmitting auxiliary data. They found little or no increase in artifacts as the auxiliary data rate was increased to 3 Mbps. At 4 Mbps, the sequence M40 (Dream Team) showed a clear increase in the visibility of artifacts. The expert observers concluded that care must be exercised in combining an auxiliary channel with a high data rate together with video scenes with high peak complex motion; subjective degradation of the video may increase rapidly as channel capacity is diverted from video to auxiliary data.



[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 08-26-2001).]
 

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I truly believe that 19Mbs can't transmit articfact free HDTV. If the above true, it amazes me that stations will actually transmit considerably lower bit rates and call it HDTV.
 
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