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High end audio cable like fine wine?

3399 Views 58 Replies 30 Participants Last post by  krab
 http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/0...01-101-ae-0001


You must read the above (it's short).



Thoughts? Comments? What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazonby /forum/post/12816015


What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?

There aren't any such people. That's why the pros do blind comparisons.
One difference between wine and wires is that in double blind tests wine lovers can tell differences and wire lovers can't. Indeed, wine lovers embrace DB tests while wire lovers do their best to avoid them.

Quote:
Indeed, wine lovers embrace DB tests while wire lovers do their best to avoid them.

Wine lovers don't do too many blind tests themselves. And many of them probably are suckers for a price tag. But wine experts are expected to have some facility with actually identifying wine types by taste alone. Audiophiles should ask the same of their "experts."
Once you're made aware of the price, it's hard, I mean really hard, to discount its influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/12819078


Once you're made aware of the price, it's hard, I mean really hard, to discount its influence.

And therein lies the rub in regard to the human perceptual apparatus, and we're all prone to its foibles. Even when we arm ourselves with empirical data from double-blind tests and whatnot, there is always a danger of falling into that trap. Fortunately, if someone buys expensive wire, they're just out more money than they need to have spent...it's not going to kill anyone or cause a plague.



But Naked Emperor Syndrome is alive and well...


Todd in Cheesecurdistan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B3Nut /forum/post/12819179


But Naked Emperor Syndrome is alive and well...

sometimes the Emperor has nice clothes ... only clothes tho
Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.


I think that's the point to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan /forum/post/12820531


Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.


I think that's the point to mind.

Good point. The wine tasters may have disagreed on which ones tasted better but they did acutally taste a difference. And as a wine lover, but clearly no expert, I can tell the difference between wines 100% of the time in unsighted tasting tests. In fact, that's SOP for us wine nuts. We only look at the bottle AFTER the tasting. But not all of us fit that article. I drink many wines at $15 a bottle and under that are superb. In fact, most wine lovers, not investors, LOOK for excellent wines as cheap as we can find them. Then we share with other enthusiasts and gloat over our finds.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico /forum/post/12820773


In fact, that's SOP for us wine nuts. We only look at the bottle AFTER the tasting. But not all of us fit that article.

Actually, I think the point of the article is that wine tasters should always study the label BEFORE the tasting. That way, you can always be sure your 2000 Chateau Lafite Rothschild will clearly win out over the 2007 Fat Bastard Texas Shiraz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan /forum/post/12820531


Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.


I think that's the point to mind.

You are right. The sad thing is that some people still spend a fortune on cables, even though they make no difference at all.
I wouldn't consider myself an audiophile by any stretch, but it's been proven that cat5 cable makes great speaker wire. You can get 1000' spool of quality Belden cat5 for about $100, even locally. So for speaker use, cut that length in half since you need at least one bulk cable for positive, one for negative. 500' of speaker wire for $100, or 20 cents per foot. All you need to do is cut off a couple inches of the sheathing, then strip each wire 1/2" to 1" or so, then twist them together. Solder them to a banana plug or just use them as they are. This will yield something like 14gauge wire. Obviously this works best with stranded core cat5. Just don't go down to your local big chain hardware store and pay for it by the foot, it'll be more like $2.00/ft, and since you need twice the length for speakers, that's $4/ft. I'd love to see a blind test where someone used cheap cat5 cable, and some cables costing 3 figures and see if a group of people could pick the high dollar cable more than the statistical rate of error.
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Yes, but Cat5 is 24 gauge IIRC and looks like this.




The net gauge is 18. So, if you cut it in quarters so that you can double it up, you've got 15 gauge (one for positive, one for negative) leaving you with 125 feet. Now, you could just leave it at that. Or, you could cut it in half again and you've got 11 gauge, leaving you with 62 feet. 12 gauge at say PartsExpress for the 'nicer' stuff is about $60. 500' of Cat5e at the same place is about $67.


So, yeah, you can buy that 500' spool but consider that...


it costs a bit more

you've got to cut it to length

you probably ought to braid it

you maybe ought to cover it

you'll be stuck with wire that's pretty friggin inflexible compared to something that's multi-stranded to begin with.


There must be something better to do with one's time that to play Betsy Ross. There's no real net savings and all you've done is proven that you can make the wire you need and take longer to do so.
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Yeah, but who needs 500 feet of speaker wire? I bought the 20 feet I needed for less than $10.
It's an investment my man. Copper futures and all that
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/12826366


There must be something better to do with one's time that to play Betsy Ross. There's no real net savings and all you've done is proven that you can make the wire you need and take longer to do so.

+1



I've never understood the desire to use Cat5 for speaker wire. It's the wrong stuff for the application. The fact that it works fine should shred the belief in the high-priced stuff, but it doesn't.


A bit more on topic, I think "Everclear" would be a great name for overpriced speaker wire.
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As well, Everclear is a great name for moonshine, my friend. I like "fine" wine a lot but "everyday wine" (ie Kendall-Jackson) is just fine for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazonby /forum/post/12816015

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/0...01-101-ae-0001


You must read the above (it's short).



Thoughts? Comments? What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?

I only know two types of wines, red and white, and I enjoy drink them but tasting them.


Same thing with my system; I enjoy listening to music a lot more than analytical readings of how the moisture level in my room alters the bass response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan /forum/post/12820531


Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.


I think that's the point to mind.

No, the point is that even when difference is real, bias for 'preference' still intrudes..and the bias is unrelated to the actual sensory effect supposedly being compared (better 'taste' versus worse taste). The 'effect' of the actual flavor, was being significantly overshadowed by the effect of knowing the price.


Not too that in at least some of the trials, the SAME bottle was presented with two different prices...and tasters reported different flavor (with the pricier 'edition' being better).

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple /forum/post/12836978


No, the point is that even when difference is real, bias for 'preference' still intrudes..and the bias is unrelated to the actual sensory effect supposedly being compared (better 'taste' versus worse taste). The 'effect' of the actual flavor, was being significantly overshadowed by the effect of knowing the price.


Not too that in at least some of the trials, the SAME bottle was presented with two different prices...and tasters reported different flavor (with the pricier 'edition' being better).

You're right, and many marketeers have become rich on this fact (with little substance to back their claims). It's part and parcel of the consumer-based lifestyle.


If I knew then what I know now, I might have chosen a different career. As things become more complex, this will only become more true. These days, people HAVE to believe what they're told to a great extent, so the better salesman wins as long as he isn't TOO deceptive.
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