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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With the comming of blue-ray audio only discs, will we start to see higher end blue ray players suited for audiophiles, etc?


Is a high-end blue ray player required to maximize the pontntial from a blue ray audio source similar to how high-end CD/SACD players are valued today?
 

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Hopefully and not really:


Profile 3.0 is yet to become a reality and with 97%+ happy with MP3's quality it will unfortunately be a hard sell.


Even the least expensive HDMI 1.3 player will pass the unaltered audio data stream (that can be decoded if DTS-MA or TrureHD). There will be ultra purest that demand a player with no video circuitry that decodes and outputs through "warm" analog outs and is built like a tank on steroids.
 

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All you really need is an HDMI processing system and a simple BluRay player to use as a transport. ANY BluRay player will do as long as it passes bitstream and/or unaltered lossless PCM. The only value for any format in terms of being "high-end" is if you must have multichannel analog from the player to your system. That is true of SACD and DVD-A as well.


I'd add that there's no reason to believe that a flood of audio-only BD discs is eminent. My money would be on something more like a trickle for a few years, followed by an abandonment of the format.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So you are saying that things that audiophiles value in CD/Sacd players such as power supply, jitter, clock, DAC etc are not as vital in a BD player?


The DAC though in the BD player, wouldn't that be important as well as the stability of the disc transport?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 /forum/post/15545378


So you are saying that things that audiophiles value in CD/Sacd players such as power supply, jitter, clock, DAC etc are not as vital in a BD player?


The DAC though in the BD player, wouldn't that be important as well as the stability of the disc transport?

None of things mean anything at all unless you are using analog outputs. Most are arguable even then.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 /forum/post/15545378


So you are saying that things that audiophiles value in CD/Sacd players such as power supply, jitter, clock, DAC etc are not as vital in a BD player?


The DAC though in the BD player, wouldn't that be important as well as the stability of the disc transport?

Since BR is, for now, mostly a video format, and since that format is so wed to HDMI, now, I do not think that there will be much emphasis placed upon the analog stage of BR players. Unlike a couple of years back, the processors in most AVRs are now capable of, at the very least, accepting the unpackaged multichannel hirez PCM from BR players if not being fully able to decode the hirez formats from bitstream. We're at the point, now, that analog outputs on devices such as this are going to soon be a thing of the past. The only reason BR players even have multichannel analog outs now is for backwards compatibility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
But the dAC is only one part of a hi-end audiophile player -- what about clock, jitter, power supply, circuit quality, etc that all affect sound quality.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 /forum/post/15546828


But the dAC is only one part of a hi-end audiophile player -- what about clock, jitter, power supply, circuit quality, etc that all affect sound quality.

With HDMI, the power supply and "circuit quality" are non-issues (unless a really badly designed system), since everything is digital.


Clock and related jitter are theoretically possible in HDMI, but extremely rare or unheard of, AFAIK: this is an issue with optical and coax SPDIF.


Ideally, everything is transmitted by HDMI out of the BD player, and therefore the AVR/Pre-Pro handles the load for converting to analog and all the bugbears associated with such a process.


IMHO, AFAIK,


shinksma
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 /forum/post/15546828


But the dAC is only one part of a hi-end audiophile player -- what about clock, jitter, power supply, circuit quality, etc that all affect sound quality.

There's no real credible evidence that any of that has any discernible impact on "sound quality" in a simple digital bitstream from a player. Bits are bits, and they either make the trip or they don't. If those are things that you feel you personally can hear, then more power to you. Personally I feel that there are dozens of more important things to be concerned with in the search for audio quality in my system. Things that don't defy the laws of physics.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 /forum/post/15546828


But the dAC is only one part of a hi-end audiophile player -- what about clock, jitter, power supply, circuit quality, etc that all affect sound quality.

All that was a bullstein for audiophooles to believe in. There is cure for that however.
 

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Yes, jitter matters in digital devices. Digital audio theory is not saying the same things it was saying in 1983.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/1208jitter/


"Jitter is generally expressed as a number of nanoseconds (ns or 10–9 second) or picoseconds (ps or 10–12 second). These are very small intervals of time—in 100ps, light travels just 12"—but digital audio theory predicts that jitter needs to be below 100ps for 16-bit (ie, CD) audio to be reproduced without degradation—and 24-bit audio requires jitter to be below 10ps!"


Any time you plug yet another device into the signal chain you're taking a chance, so we shouldn't assume that a Japanese receiver represents perfection - we've gotten burned by Sony promises before. Until reviewers start measuring jitter in HDMI outputs we really don't know if they're okay, though I definitely prefer the sound of my Oppo using the HDMI.


Now you can argue that we can't hear differences that small anyway, but in that case why do you need a 24-bit format? Stick with your CD player, preferably a Coby.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by super390 /forum/post/15555911


Yes, jitter matters in digital devices. Digital audio theory is not saying the same things it was saying in 1983.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/1208jitter/


"Jitter is generally expressed as a number of nanoseconds (ns or 10-9 second) or picoseconds (ps or 10-12 second). These are very small intervals of timein 100ps, light travels just 12"but digital audio theory predicts that jitter needs to be below 100ps for 16-bit (ie, CD) audio to be reproduced without degradationand 24-bit audio requires jitter to be below 10ps!"


Any time you plug yet another device into the signal chain you're taking a chance, so we shouldn't assume that a Japanese receiver represents perfection - we've gotten burned by Sony promises before. Until reviewers start measuring jitter in HDMI outputs we really don't know if they're okay, though I definitely prefer the sound of my Oppo using the HDMI.


Now you can argue that we can't hear differences that small anyway, but in that case why do you need a 24-bit format? Stick with your CD player, preferably a Coby.

Well that's just it, it's never been established scientifically but only by some anecdotes that jitter is audible at all, or that a 24 bit recording is anything but an overkill, especially that there is no converter that has true 24 bit output[expressed in the analog S/N or dynamic range figures]. This is part of this religion called "audiphilia " that based on nothing but anecdotes, personal beliefs and pseudo science, so if you are part of that, facts, logic and reason is not what you're interested in.
 

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With regard to HDMI and jitter, as you will see above there is some controversy around the issue. There are two factors with regard to audio over HDMI that may make jitter more of an issue: (1) the HDMI audio clock is derived from the video clock (2) higher bitrates are required for uncompressed multichannel sound. The Silicon Image HDMI transmitter/receiver pair (9134/9135) evidently minimizes these jitter issues so you may wish to purchase a blu ray machine that uses the 9134 (if available yet).


I use a PS3 as a blu ray player that uses an older chipset. I have been absolutely thrilled with the performance but have observed that different HDMI cables did have a surprising effect on sound quality, I expect due to sub-optimal jitter performance. (My tests were not double blind so may have been subject to bias.)


I am typing this out from my phone so it is not easy to attach references but let me know if you would like these.
 

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There are about 15 "Acoustic Reality" DTS-MA 7.1 classical music discs and counting. I have almost all of them, and they sound great using the Denon 3800. I have been using HDMI to my Integra Pre-Amp, but just bought 7.1 analog cables to let the 3800 do the work, since I know the 3800 is better than the Integra. That's because the Denon 5910 was considered an audiophile machine, and the 3800 uses the same analog section.


So to answer the question; the Denon 3800 is the way to go if you want "Audiophile" analog quality on these audio only Blu Ray discs. Unless you want to spend $4,200. on Denon's new universal player.


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m?...lu+ray&x=0&y=0
 
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