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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been struggling over this for quite some time. I know the Pros and Cons of both but I'm on the fence and need some honest advice nudging me one way or the other.


* Basement viewing. Light controlled as far as direct sunlight but I have a massive reef tank anchoring one end of my bar across the basement. There is some indirect light during the day until about 8pm. Then it goes dark. Think light like an old crt from across the room.


* I already have an older generation 7G 50" pioneer in my bedroom, and a brand new Kuro 50" in my family room. I love both of these sets for their plasma like qualities.


* The area in the basement I'm looking at has the viewing area set into a niche. Its 130" wide but opens up into a larger area that houses the pub gathering area and a very large sectional. Ceilings are drop, just over 8' high. There is area above the drop to house wires, mounts ect.


* No back wall. Projector would have to be hung either 8, or about 15' back from screen.


* Seating is as far as 14' back, ranges to about 10' back.


* Upstairs I watch mostly sports, TV, and about 20% movies. The basement I wanted to watch more movies, but It will still be used if there are people over for sports viewings (Bar). Lights are dim-able in the basement but they won't be completely off when sports is on.


What I'm struggling with is basically this. I love the look and the texture of the Kuros. Call me uncultured AV wise but I like the bold colors and the pop. At least I'm honest
The problem is downstairs the 60" Kuro basically looks like a big TV. Is its very nice. Yes. Is it a wow factor No. I masked out the 60" on the wall with tape and I'm less than thrilled.


One more complication. I AM an audiophile. This niche is a pita sonically but I build my own speakers (well I try at least ) and I can work with some of the boundary conditions. What I cant figure out is how to position fronts and a screen in 130" by 8'. even a 92" 16:9 screen is 54" high. I'm trying to figure out how to leave myself room for taller speakers, and have a larger screen and nor have the speakers smashed into the side walls thus causing bad boundary conditions. Speakers will have bass boxes underneath for dual subs, although I could move the bass boxes inward and put them under the screen thus shortening the towers some. I still want the tweeters around ear level when in a sitting position however.


I've never owned a projector. I could never afford (30k+) the ones that actually looked good to me. However the latest crop is starting to get to where they are acceptable to me. I saw the JVC RS2U and it was acceptable. The 20U looks even better?


The question is what screen size should I be looking at? What gain? does the current crop of projectors under 10k (I could push 12k.. you get the idea its not the money but a self imposed "you are being stupid" limit) fir the bill. Is any of this even workable?


Much thanks in advance for helping me gather my thoughts
 

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If movies are your goal then projection is the only way to go. I also considered the flat screen idea before. However, if you really want to be immersed into a movie there is nothing better then a huge projected image that is measured in feet and not inches.


At 10K or 12K you have lots of options. I don't even know that you have to even aim that high really. The RS20 you mentioned is probably one of the most popular projectors on here. The planar 8150 is probably another strong option for your environment too. Sounds like you'll need something with some decent lumen output since you will use it with the lights up as well.


I'd get the projector first though and see what size image you're comfortable with. Then work backwards from there. Gain will depend a lot on what projector you end up going with. I'm quite positive you'll be very happy with your decision to go projection. It sounds like you already have nice assortment of flat screens to watch things on already. So why not go with something new and different? Rather then just another larger and better version of something you've already got?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16944731


One more complication. I AM an audiophile. This niche is a pita sonically but I build my own speakers (well I try at least ) and I can work with some of the boundary conditions. What I cant figure out is how to position fronts and a screen in 130" by 8'. even a 92" 16:9 screen is 54" high. I'm trying to figure out how to leave myself room for taller speakers, and have a larger screen and nor have the speakers smashed into the side walls thus causing bad boundary conditions. Speakers will have bass boxes underneath for dual subs, although I could move the bass boxes inward and put them under the screen thus shortening the towers some. I still want the tweeters around ear level when in a sitting position however.

Why don't you use an acoustically transparent screen? Screen research, SMX, Seymour AV, Screen Excellence all make very nice woven AT screens that perform very well audio wise. This way you can max out your screen size and have more optimal speaker placement.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16944956


Something else I just thought of... How in the world do you run a hdmi cable up 8 feet and over 16 or so feet? Do you have to use a hdmi repeater or something?

You don't need an hdmi repeator for that length. You should be fine running a 25' - 30' heavy gauge hdmi cable. If you;re worried, just test it out before installing it in the walls.
 

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My space is only 135" wide so I am using a 128" wide acoustically transparent screen. My speakers sit behind the screen. I built the screen to swing up and lay against the ceiling when I want to listen to music. I would have gone with a roll up tensioned AT screen but the total width was too wide to acheive a 54" viewable height on a 2.35:1 screen.
 

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I had a Pioneer Kuro as well (a 6020). If you want great black levels you need to look at the JVCs. The JVC RS20 is the best now for black levels. If you really want the picture to "pop" like a plasma you would need a screen like the DaLite High Power screen. However, for best results the projector would need to be near eye level and the screen also have a sweet spot (w/o hotspotting though). You won't find a projection setup that will pop like a Kuro but a JVC with an HP screen will likely come the closest to what you are looking for.


There are acoustical screens that let you put the speakers behind the screen, however my understanding that you will lose a little light output with an accoustical screen. Outside of an accoustical you won't be able to place the center channel's tweeter at ear level. You would have to put the center either lower or have it hang from the ceiling and aimed downwards towards the viewing area.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for all the replys. I'm not overly concerned about the center channels tweeters, but more the mains. Most of my audio listening is 2 channel anyways.


The acoustically transparent screens look interesting. Years ago when I looked into this microperf was the best option and it had a sound signature. Screen Research's response curves for their material look really really good. If I went with, say a 120 inch screen and I used its 0.95 gain material, with a 20U thrown from approximately 12-15 feet what kind of ft/lamberts am I looking at?


I'm thinking I'd have a tensioned screen come down 2 feet or so from the back wall. Unfortunately when I set the room up I ran all the speaker cables and terminated them to sit under where the plasma would be. Although I could build an equipment rack to live under the screen, the lights might be annoying. I could build a solid front on the rack though to cut out all the ambient light.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16944956


Something else I just thought of... How in the world do you run a hdmi cable up 8 feet and over 16 or so feet? Do you have to use a hdmi repeater or something?


I've had a 40' HDMI cable (MonoPrice.com - see above) installed for over 4 years. No problems at all (knock on wood).
 

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First, I used speaker cloth on the door of the equipment cabinet I built to block light or mute it. This allowed air transfer but cut down on the distracting LED's.


Now, I made the same move. Couldn't be happier. Here's what I learned during the process.


Don't assume you have to use an AT screen. Use the AT screens only if you have no other option. I have in walls and spent the money to move them wider to allow the "big screen" rather than get an AT screen. The AT screens are nice I'm sure, but if given the option of a 1.3 gain solid screen or a .95 gain AT screen, everyone would choose the former. It just works better. So make sure you can't use a standard screen material first.


You need to first pick what size screen you want. Base this on seating distance and room size. I sit 12-13'' away and have a 120" dia. screen. Works great. After you choose the screen size you want, then you make the choice for what material you can use based on speaker arrangement, then you pick the projector that can light it up.


Pick a good size screen. Don't underestimate the screen size because you'll regret it later. Do this analysis, then come back.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16946524


The acoustically transparent screens look interesting. Years ago when I looked into this microperf was the best option and it had a sound signature. Screen Research's response curves for their material look really really good. If I went with, say a 120 inch screen and I used its 0.95 gain material, with a 20U thrown from approximately 12-15 feet what kind of ft/lamberts am I looking at?

It depends on what lamp mode and iris settings you use.


Extrapolating using GregR's numbers at 12.75' throw, on a 120" .95 gain screen, it can range anywhere between 7ft/lamberts (low lamp closed iris) - 17ft/lamberts (high lamp max open iris). If you want more brightness, you can try a smaller screen size and/or I think SMX and Seymour AV have gains on their screens.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16946524


...If I went with, say a 120 inch screen and I used its 0.95 gain material, with a 20U thrown from approximately 12-15 feet what kind of ft/lamberts am I looking at? ...

Go here and select your projector, screen size, and throw distance and it will give you your answer:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ulator-pro.cfm


I have a Pioneer FPJ1 throwing a 106" pic with an 11' throw (shorter than ideal) and it would give me about 17fL on neutral gain screen. I believe a calibrated Kuro puts out in the 25-35fL range. I just wanted to point out that on a neutral gain screen the brightness of a projector isn't going to look quite the same as a plasma (though it will still look very good). Thus that's why I mentioned the DaLite HP screen which will provide you plasma like brightness and if you got a projector like a JVC the black levels will still be excellent.


Also, keep in mind that CEDIA is about a month away and news will be coming out about up and coming projectors. New projectors could start to show up late fall so keep that in mind when making your purchase.
 

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SMX and SeymourAV are 1.16 gain.


I love my SMX screen... though SeymourAV now has a very competitive fixed frame option for less $$$. Granted... with a 10-12K budget, you could afford an RS20 and an SMX screen without a problem.


I run a Panasonic AE3000 from a 17' throw on my 129" wide (111" diagonal 16:9 area) 2.35:1 SMX screen. We often watch TV with some ambient light and have no issues with brightness.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis /forum/post/16947835


SMX and SeymourAV are 1.16 gain.


I love my SMX screen... though SeymourAV now has a very competitive fixed frame option for less $$$. Granted... with a 10-12K budget, you could afford an RS20 and an SMX screen without a problem.


I run a Panasonic AE3000 from a 17' throw on my 129" wide (111" diagonal 16:9 area) 2.35:1 SMX screen. We often watch TV with some ambient light and have no issues with brightness.

We used to use a comparitive material, but the new Center Stage XD is quite different: 3x the hole density, 1.2 gain, +0.5db AT from 8k-20k, closer sitting/speaker requirements. Request a sample if you want to compare.


Cheers,

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Ok I think I've made up my mind to go projector. The wife was a bit iffy but I then pointed out screen can roll up thus having a wall of art work and she was suddenly all over the idea
I never mentioned that I'm planning on sports related "bar" artwork, but then again she never asked



I'm in no rush to install this thing. Wife wants it up before football season (Shes a huge ND fan believe it or not) but I won't rush it. I'm going to mock up some speaker boxes and play around with the room arrangement and screen sizes. If I went with an AT screen I can easily get 120" diagonal based on fast measuring. I can actually go larger but playing around with the THX calculator I'm already over the recommended viewing size at the viewing angle.


I'll request samples when the time comes from all the screen manufacturers. Thanks for the offer Chris. The problem with AT (and it seems all things acoustical) is that EVERYONE says theirs is the best. I'm an engineer. I recognize that there is no absolute best, its always a matter of compromises. I'll map out whats important to me and try and fit those in. A true AT screen with a slightly positive gain looks attractive.


I'll continue slogging on.


Oh something else. My limited research for 2.35 AR shows 2 ways. Either throw a 2.35 image on 16:9 screen and have part unused with black masking or use an anamorphic lens with a preprocessor to correct for image distortion. Optionall also go curved screen to help with said distortion.


Question: Is this correct? are there other ways? Are there any projectors with built in 2.35 lenses and correction? Are there any holy grail solutions where the projector takes care of all the magic either way?


Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16953527


I never mentioned that I'm planning on sports related "bar" artwork, but then again she never asked

If your wife is anything like mine, that trick will only last about as long as it takes for her to walk down the stairs and see them hanging there


-Suntan
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmilas /forum/post/16953527


Question: Is this correct? are there other ways? Are there any projectors with built in 2.35 lenses and correction? Are there any holy grail solutions where the projector takes care of all the magic either way?

With a lens, your CIH options are:

- slide lens in for 2.35, slide out for 16:9.

- keep lens in place all the time and scale as needed for 2.35 and 16:9

- keep a prismasonic lens in place all the time and vary the stretch of the lens

*all these options will require an electronic vertical stretch


Without a lens, your CIH options are:

- zoom in and out between 2.35 and 16:9

- keep zoomed in at 2.35 all the time and scale for 16:9 (effectively a 817p native 2.35 projector).
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
New projector specs are being leaked... just in time



I masked out the wall again last night and I think I've decided to get an AT screen (probably that new 4k material... .98 gain) and mount it motorized in the ceiling about 2 feet infront of the wall. This gives me 24 inches behind to play with my speaker options. I think 24 inches is enough, but I might bump it to 30. I'm looking at going with a 120" diagonal 16:9 screen. Since I'll be watching around 50% non movie 16:9 content I think it makes sense to skip the 2.35 native screen. If I watch 2.35 I'll just deal with the letter-boxing and slightly smaller image.


Question though. If both the new jvc machines (like the old ones) are Lcos machines, why does the smaller(chaper) version put out more light output? Is the cheaper one really a dlp? I know the cheaper one doesn't have the black levels the more expensive one does...
 
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