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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I can't resist.


What little research I've done to date seems like this is the little engine that could...and for under $1300...


Before I really dig-in, and begin my buying process...Can anyone offer up why I SHOULDN'T get the AVR 8000. Does the Denon 3803 do anything better...??


Has there been any professional reviews (for what they're worth) on the 8000?


I'll be driving Rocket 750's, 300,s and a 200 (5.1 for now)...OR possibly the Diva 6.1, R3, C3 combo.


I currently have the Onkyo 575x...and ets just say, I still don't know why the POD race is all its cracked up to be...That cave explosion pales next to U571 Depth charges??? I think I'm clipping terribly...



p.s. The subject plays on the growing threads in the Speaker forum...You need days to read through 'em...with TONS of insightfule, and not so insightful comments :) I'm looking for the insightful side, here :)
 

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Wow, That is a strong statement.


For starters the 8000 is a good receiver. The Best is subject to opinion. I don't know where you can find it for under $1300. It lists for $2799.


I would rather have the Denon 3803 myself. I like the Sound of the Denon Receivers more. It also has 7 amplified channels, compared to only 5 on the HK 8000.So to use 7 channel processing you will need outboard amps.


Speaking of amps , Have you thought about maybe adding power amps to your Onkyo?
 

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Well, I think that we are comming up to the third time that the H/K is available for about 1200 through apex at Onecall (authorized).

Of course at Ubid (unauthorized) the prices have been that too.


So you got my vote...I guess that is why I got it too.


Great amps and Logic7...Maybe the best deal for 5.1 people who might upgrade to 7.1 later. And that might be the key statement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Darkside, I have considered External AMPS..but my Onkyo 575x has no Pre-outs.


Your comments are just what I wanted to hear...I've seen the Denon 3803 at "Uncle Eddies" I believe for under $900...and yes, I'm hearing that Onecall will be offering the HK again for under $1300.


I'd make a visit to the local retailer...but thats useless, as they haven't even heard of Rocket's (or won't admit it).


Highdef...I think thats why MOST people have purchased it...and is the primary reason I'm considering it...


Not even sure I can talk the "significant other" into this this year...


How about Ummphh...Bass for the Rockets...(sans Subwoofer)...Which has better bottom-end control and power?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The More I think about this..How CAN Denon compare...


The HK AVR 800 Lists for over $2400...

The Denon 3803 Lists for MUCH less...


Is the HK that "underperforming" for its list...or the Denon "overacheiving" IT'S price...
 

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I sort of feel like the title of this thread should be "Denon 3803 - Best Reciever for the Money , Ever... ???" I took home an HK 8000 before I bought my Denon to check it out. I have always liked the looks and the performance of the HK stuff and it was my first choice. However, after listening to the 2 units side by side in my listening room as well as another Pioneer Elite receiver, I give the Denon the hands down win. The power is cleaner and the staging is better IMO - and especially since I paid just $900 for the Denon.


I REALLY thought I was going to have to spend more on a receiver to saturate these rather power hungry Paradigms I have - the Denon 3803 proved me wrong.


J
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I can't change the thread title, but Excellent feedback...Keep it coming..
 

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In order for something to be the 'best of ...' one needs to list out where such measurements are being taken. For instance, I would estimate that a variety of measurable fields could be yielded, and in which the competition has something to offer in each or most of those fields. For instance, measuring an AVR's for:


Rated vs. Measured Power (WPCx2, and WPCx5/6/7)

Rated vs. Measured THD/THD+N at Rated Power

Processing Modes (DPL, DPL2, DD, DD EX, THX, THX ES, L7)

Speaker Load Tolerance (Rated vs. Measured, 4, 6, 8, or +8)

Clipping Circuit (does it have one, and if so how does it work)

# of Composite, S-Video, and Component Video Inputs/Outputs

Upconversion Availability?

OSD available on which Outputs?

Multi-channel Audio Input Availability (analog or digital?)

# Optical (digital) Audio Inputs/Outputs

# Coax (digital) Audio Inputs/Outputs

Tape Monitor Capable (I/O), and how many

Phono Input & Ground?

Balanced/Unbalanced Audio Preouts?

Any Certifications worth noting?

Any manufacturer-specific or psuedo-specific features (MCACC, etc.)

... and so on and so forth.


Get the picture? If a receiver has the ability to meet most of the common features, some of the more elaborate features, and meets its rated power ability in measurements, then I would say a product is ripe for consideration. But, to just go blindly into the night with such a statement it totally unfounded without credible reasons other than price. JUst because its 'free' doesn't make it the 'best' of its kind.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by WanMan
In order for something to be the 'best of ...' one needs to list out where such measurements are being taken. For instance, I would estimate that a variety of measurable fields could be yielded, and in which the competition has something to offer in each or most of those fields. For instance, measuring an AVR's for:


Rated vs. Measured Power (WPCx2, and WPCx5/6/7)

Rated vs. Measured THD/THD+N at Rated Power

Processing Modes (DPL, DPL2, DD, DD EX, THX, THX ES, L7)

Speaker Load Tolerance (Rated vs. Measured, 4, 6, 8, or +8)

Clipping Circuit (does it have one, and if so how does it work)

# of Composite, S-Video, and Component Video Inputs/Outputs

Upconversion Availability?

OSD available on which Outputs?

Multi-channel Audio Input Availability (analog or digital?)

# Optical (digital) Audio Inputs/Outputs

# Coax (digital) Audio Inputs/Outputs

Tape Monitor Capable (I/O), and how many

Phono Input & Ground?

Balanced/Unbalanced Audio Preouts?

Any Certifications worth noting?

Any manufacturer-specific or psuedo-specific features (MCACC, etc.)

... and so on and so forth.


Get the picture? If a receiver has the ability to meet most of the common features, some of the more elaborate features, and meets its rated power ability in measurements, then I would say a product is ripe for consideration. But, to just go blindly into the night with such a statement it totally unfounded without credible reasons other than price. JUst because its 'free' doesn't make it the 'best' of its kind.
This is certainly good information and for the most part relevant, but I have a philiosophy about picking out electronics and it is slightly different. It is a good and valid assumption at this point in the history of Home Theater that most anything in this pricerange (retail $1000 or more) is going to have 90% of the same features that the others do. Yes, there may be subtle differences in features or technology one way or another, but for the most part these devices are very close to one another.


This is the same type of problem you have with PCs and Servers - 90% of the models out there have the same capabilities, and thats great. The other 10% have a set of features above and beyond those other 90% which are stated to be "superior" because they are "high end" or bleeding edge. Do those 10% features make it worth spending 200-300% more on a higher end component? Realistically, probably not. Will you be able to tell the difference between a $1500 receiver and a $4000 reciever through the same speakers, TV, Sub, etc.?? Well, the answer is probably not. It all boils down to opportunity cost. I have been frustrated with my home theater gear search lately because of certain factors. It seems like most of the content that myself or my family wants to watch is stil DD 5.1, which means most of my movies and/or audio content will not take advantage of the "latest and greatest" audio decoding or surround format. This is a bummer and makes me wonder why we spend money on these heady surround systems at all.


The other statement above that is debatable is "Do certifications matter?" In my opinion they do not. A lot of people would probably disagree with me, but in my experience certifications are more window dressing and marketing than anything else and there are plenty of devices out there with no certifications that would certainly be worthy and better than devices without. A good example? The Sunfire Ultimate Reciever. This is no doubt one of the best high end pieces on the market today, and its not THX certified. Wonder why? It dosent NEED to be.


My point is: Set your criteria very carefully for yourself, not to please anyone else. Most of us are in this "hobby" to enjoy our systems, not to sit around and analyze and try to be engineers. This is another reason I went with the Denon. It really does have a lot of bang for the buck. For a working stiff like me, that equates to fewer payments over fewer months to own the equipment free and clear. Im not saying all this makes it a reason to go get a Denon over an HK because its a little cheaper, but if it performs better for less money then that is the most compelling factor in any electronics decision.


Cheers,


JaMa
 

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Jeff:


I'll throw in my humble 2 cents here. I think the HK is a fine receiver. If I'd had a little more money I definitely would have purchased it.


Some may not like this statement, but I don't think one can really talk about the sound of two different receivers. Let me try to explain. When you go from store to store to listen to different receivers the setups are completely different obviously so any conclusions on sound would just be really hard to quantify.


Now, lets bring them home. Buy several and test. My problem with this is that the receivers in this price range, Denon 3803, HK 525, 8000, Onkyo 900, Pioneer 45 TX, and probably others have complicated setups.


So, let me give you this, I think all manufacturers have "out of the box" sound tendencies that one can identify as different and say this receiver sounds warm and I like it better or other characteristics.


But, with working on the setup, can one change the sound of a particular receiver to sound exactly like the other (or very close)? I guess what I'm really trying to say is that you have to live with these machines for some time to get the sound where you like it and really get to know its capabilities.


For instance, I know you know I have the Pioneer 45 TX. It has a lot of setup flexibility. I also have an old Pioneer Silver SX-1080. I think Pioneer has been pretty true to their type of sound over the years (at least between these two models). I can play stereo side by side and they are very similiar in presentation. But, in comparison, I had the Onkyo 595, HK 520 and this machine in my home. Was the sound that much different - yes the setups were and that affected my judgement for the type of receiver I wanted. But, I wonder if I had the HK 520 now if I could make it sound very close to the 45 TX. My thinking is yes. But, I wouldn't know the 45 TX sounded dofferent if it weren't for the auto setup and playing with it for three months.


Now, I would love to hook up a Denon 3803, HK 525 or 8000 and check them out and live with them awhile and I'd know for sure which one I liked best for a lot of different reasons including the sound quality.


So, I'd guess to look at the specs and seriously compare features (as WanMan indicated) and what you think you'll need. Find their weaknesses by talking here on this forum. For instance, don't buy a Pioneer if you have 4 Ohm speakers.


I really think all these machines are comparable (and very good) and your likes/dislikes on features makes the difference.


Interesting thread...............


Mike
 

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the 8000 is a nice classy unit with typical HK quality sound. Look at the back of that thing.


they sell it with a dental insurance policy, so when it fails you can use all that gold for a crown :D
 

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I didn't mean to indicate that WanMan.


But, I really believe, given time, you can make these receivers sound pretty much alike...................I actually love the HK's layout also and only relented buying anHK because of the cost at the time and the difference between that and the 45TX.


Mike
 

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I like that loopy and an important feature to consider. My old Pioneers connections don't look so good these days.


Mike
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeRP
Now, I would love to hook up a Denon 3803, HK 525 or 8000 and check them out and live with them awhile and I'd know for sure which one I liked best for a lot of different reasons including the sound quality.
I actually did this in making my decision. I took home a Denon 3803, a Pioneer 45 TX and an AVR 8000. I lived with all 3 of them (banana plugs rule) back and forth on various audio and surround materials for a period of about 6 days. I attempted to get the audio and video setups as close to each other as possible for a fair test. I cranked them ALOT - I put highly challenging audio content through each of them and I was able to make the Denon my choice. I must admit that the Pioneer was a very close second. That unit, aside from looking very good on my gear rack :) also has some damn good surround processing and a decent set of amplifiers at any price. But, the Denon just seemed to have a better overall package and sounded marginally better with my speaker setup in my opinion.


Now, I must admit that this is my second Denon. My first was a venerable AVR3200 I currently have hooked up to my computer. That unit was not even in the same league with this 3803, but I must admit that the setup screens are almost identical which made the 3803 very very easy for me to setup. However, I do like MCCAC that Pioneer implements. Very cool feature, almost like a THX optimizer.


JaMa
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
No offense guys, (and none taken)...But I'm not really asking about sound "quality"...as much as features you use/don't use...Flexibility, etc...


As I indicated in the bottom of the first thread...Its a play off the ever-popular speaker threads (Rockets and Swan's)..if thats offensive I'll ask Dave to retitle the thread..As I can't do it.


Like Speakers, Receivers will have sounds (albiet configurable) that some will prefer over others...I get all that...


The purpose of this thread is to get feedback on features..I can read the specs...Their VERY close...but how about setup? Remote's?


My biggest concern, is that the Amplifier section have more than enough Dynamic head room for the Rocket/Diva's ...So that at reference volumes I'm not clipping the "good stuff"


Furthermore, I've read in other threads that DAC converters, and decoders can make a HUGE difference in the quality of a surround system...How do the Decoders compare in the 8000 vs. 3803?


Another big one for me, as I'm wired for whole-house AV...is the the VAVR8000 does Multi-Source/Multi-Zone control for two zones (Theater room, and other)..Does the Denon? Is one more configurable than the other...


Does one offer more long-term flexibility than the other...


I'm further asking how Denon can make a 7-Channel (all powered) receiver for less than half the list of the HK (5-Powered)...and have it directly compared...? Or should I be comparing the AVR8000 to the 4802?? and why?


THX certification, while "Cool" does nothing for me...



Thanx, everyone...Keep it coming...
 

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For what it is worth . . .


I believe any of these receivers will sound fine if you don't play them loud. I have the Denon 3803 and it does great until you play Starwars at the reference level - volume control at 0 db and speakers set to 75 db by SPL meter.


Using the subwoofer and center speakers, the receiver can keep up. If I set it to subwoofer and center off to throw the sound to the mains, the 3803 clips badly on LF and RF. Turning the volume down 6 db fixes the clipping - barely.


So, if you intend to use your main speakers w/ no center and sub and play at reference levels, you might consider going to a beefier receiver, or do what I'm going to do, go with an external amp.


My mains are Empire Royal Grenadier Model 9000 ( 92+db eff, nom 8 Ohms).
 
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