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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
At the request of a few individual members I've started this thread to cover the 437's calibration results individually of the 507. Hopefully Phil and Ken can contribute since they are the experts and I'm simply a beginner with a computer, a 437 and Colorfacts.


I'll start where I left off in the 507 thread. I spent Monday evening calibrating the component 1 progressive input. This is the input that I posted those horrible blue pictures of Star Wars II from. I ran some basleline CF tests. The temperature was off the scale.....not sure where that is but I've had readings as high as 22,000K on the DVI input so this must have been higher. The RGB histogram plotted red and green but no blue was present so I assume this was off the chart as well. The CIE chart plot was smaller than my DVI plot....Phil, Ken, is this normal or should they be constant between inputs? Maybe it could be the difference between Avia's test patterns and CF's test patterns. I began by changing gamma to zero since Phil had determined this to be the best choice on his unit. I began bringing the grayscale measurments all in to 6505K ballpark from 25 to 100 IRE with good results. Once I had them close (B_offset was down to 48!) I ran the grayscale wizard again and the RGB histogram looked good but the luminence histogram showed a gamma of 3.08. I changed the gamma selection to gamma 2......readjusted grayscale and ran the wizard once again. RGB Hist. looked good and the Luminence Hist. now showed a gamma of 2.27. The picture was now much more watchable but the blacks still looked slightly blue to me. I then played with all of my unknown adjustments.....Here's what I noticed, no measurements were taken unless noted.

Defaultlay - Significant changes up or down causes weird distortion?, claying?, posterization? of faces etc. I'm wondering if this is the timing of the color wheel to DMD or similiar. Since this does do what I described I hope it can be tweaked slightly to help out the occasional scene where these effects are already present.

S-CT(DDP) - Increases contrast measurably. Default value of 120 measured a CR of 362:1, raising S_CT(DDP) to 128 increased CR to 433:1 with only slight change to the grayscale which I readjusted.

RYAXIS - Not touched yet
BYGAIN - Not touched yet.

S-CT(MN) - Slight change in CR, increasing this from 128 to 140 raised my CR from 433:1 to 448:1 but has a surprising effect on the luminence histogram causing the line to stray from the reference line on CF.....it will sag down low, pass through the reference in the middle and ride above it up high. The more it's increased the more this effect happens.

6. AD9883 - no measurement taken on any of these yet..observation only.
Y-gain adjust - No obvious visible changes observed.
Y-offset adjust - I was told turning this down to as low as 45 - 53 from the default of 60 improves shadow detail etc. I found that turning it down from 65 to 0 turns blacks to blue, 65 and up is solid black (or as good as this unit gets) at 65 and under the pixels being to crawl with blue noise and this increases until 0 where the screen is totally blue.
CR-Gain adjust - No obvious visible changes observed.
CR-Offset adjust - Turns the screen magenta? as the setting is reduced, no visible changes observed in color on the top of the scale.
CB-Gain adjust - No obvious visible changes observed.
CB-Offset adjust - Similiar to Y-offset, black turns blue as it's lowered from 65. Above 65 no changes were apparant. I think this was one of my major problems My default setting was 28.....VERY BLUE as the pictures showed. Phil's setting was 60, I raised mine to 61 and readjusted my grayscale once again to consider the changes. Now I wonder if going back to Y-Offset if the changing to blue might be gone....possibly changed to gray?


I'll post the updated spreadsheet below.....I've still some blank area's to fill out but it's getting close to completed. The set is looking very good now. Star Wars II looked close to correct last night. The blue tint is gone or at least nearly gone. Color and detail is good to excellent. At this point my main concerns on all inputs are shadow detail....I'd like to increase the details but at the same time try to make black even more black. All of the settings I've tried that were claimed to increase shadow detail did indeed do this but they also made the whole image lighter. My goal is dark black with no crawling and good shadow details.


I've also got an ISF tech coming soon (He's waiting for a Sencore CP 5000) to arrive. Then we can double check all of the settings and make adjustments as needed. I'm really looking forward to his opinion and trained eye. In a conversation last night with the ISF guy I was telling him about my concerns regarding blacks & shadows, he made a good point that it's likely due to a contrast issue. Apparantly contrast in DLP's is difficult to set properly using a contrast test because in a DLP you can't get the set to bloom with the contrast even at 100% He want's to start by nailing down the correct gamma, contrast and brightness followed by grayscale etc. I'm curious what he finds.



I'll post the CF histograms etc. this evening.

 

my current service menu.zip 11.2294921875k . file
 

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Supertoyz, thanks for keeping us up to date with your progress. I've a 437 too and I don't have your "blue" problem. I just checked and my Cb_offset defaults to 58, not 28. I did reduce Y_Offset from 60 to 50 and S_CT(DDP) from 120 to 128 to make my rp82 progr. picture much better. Just these tweaks together with black expansion off seem to make my component progressive picture very close to your _after_ starwars screenshot.

I've the most problems with s-video where colors

appear overly bright or look slightly off depending on the dish sat channel. I adjusted user menu color to about 30 to combat most of it but I am still looking for more improvements hints. I wish the dish 921 receiver was out yet, it seems about perfect for what I need (assuming it works ;).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
S-video inputs are next as soon as I can get my *!#*&%$#[email protected]^ Radeon 8500 to accept that a display device is connected to the S-Video out. ATI charges something like $1.50 / minute for support. Cheaper to go buy a new video card.
 

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Don't use the S-Video out on the Radeon, or ANY videocard for that matter, 640x480 just doesn't cut it and most do not want to allow similtaneous connections with VGA and S-video or DVI and S-video, on or the other, except DVI and VGA, they allow that, but as a dual display setup.


The S-video will definitely look like crap, try s-video from a DVD player if you feel the need to calibrate that input.


Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by vfrjim
Don't use the S-Video out on the Radeon, or ANY videocard for that matter, 640x480 just doesn't cut it and most do not want to allow similtaneous connections with VGA and S-video or DVI and S-video, on or the other, except DVI and VGA, they allow that, but as a dual display setup.


The S-video will definitely look like crap, try s-video from a DVD player if you feel the need to calibrate that input.


Jim
But it's so much easier (automated) to run the CF tests displayed from a PC than have to refer to Avia for test patterns on DVD. Besides how can 480 from a PC be worse than 480 from DVD? I'm just talking about calibration nothing more.....I don't think resolution would have much if any effect on this.
 

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If you want s-video to work, then try this, unplug all outputs from the video card and plug in the s-video lead. Turn on the set and select svideo input, turn on the computer with only the s-video connected, the card should detect the samsung and all will be well (hopefully).


Jim
 

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Since you mentioned Star Wars II....


I watched it tonight. [rave_on] What a fantastic picture! Totally stunning. I'm stoked!


Everything was right, blacks were black, shadow detail was crisp, flesh tones right, saturated colors, high contrast, bright, free of noise and grain. Did I mention the blacks? :) :) :)


It's tweaked to perfection :) :) :) [/rave_off]


Tom
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Roper
Since you mentioned Star Wars II....


I watched it tonight. [rave_on] What a fantastic picture! Totally stunning. I'm stoked!


Everything was right, blacks were black, shadow detail was crisp, flesh tones right, saturated colors, high contrast, bright, free of noise and grain. Did I mention the blacks? :) :) :)


It's tweaked to perfection :) :) :) [/rave_off]


Tom
Did you post your DVD SM settings? I must have missed it. Did you use Phil's ColorFacts calibrated settings?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by pspun
Did you post your DVD SM settings? I must have missed it. Did you use Phil's ColorFacts calibrated settings?
Yea, what are your numbers? :)
 

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Okay, I'll post them....stand by.
 

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Supertoyz,


Great report - I too am trying to tweak the shadow detail and gamma for my new Sony HS-10 with Colorfacts and am runnig across some of the same posterization issues when I muck around with the gamma settings.


I've attached a file that I use to plot gamma so I can really see what is going on in the 0-30 IRE range where all the tough shadow detail issues arise and the grey scale wizard can't show. You have to manually measure each IRE level and punch it into the spreadsheet table (the gamma curves won't plot until you've measured and input the luminance of the 100IRE - I usually do that first).


The idea is to see how close to the standard gamma curves you can get. These are the light lines labelled 2.2, 2.4, 2.6 and 2.8. As you can see, the HS-10 tracks close to the 2.6 line (actually closer to 2.55) nicely on the zoomed out view, but it breaks down when you zoom in on the 0-30IRE range (purple line). If I turn on the Cinema mode 1 on my DVD player, I boost the luminance of the 0-20IRE range and it tracks closer to the 2.6 curve.


Hope this helps.


Dave
 

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Whoops - here's the file,


Dave

 

detailed gamma plots.zip 5.8798828125k . file
 

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DDP1010:

POS-Y=12

POS-X=150

LAMP=TOS/PHIL

DELAY=224

BR=255

CT=150

V-FLIP=NORMAL

H-FLIP=NORMAL

GAMMA=0


MN82860:

R_GAIN=220

G_GAIN=230

B_GAIN=237

R_OFFSET=134

G_OFFSET=128

B_OFFSET=132

S_BR=48

S_CT(DDP)=150

BTHN=ON

WTHN=OFF

RYAXIS=0

BYGAIN=128

WLIM=223

WKAKOU=4

WPEAK=63

WSTPO=32

BKAKAOU=0

BLIM=0

BSTPO=0

RMC=0

CTI=2

S_CT(MN)=128


AD9883:

Y_GAIN=170

Y_OFFSET=50

Cr_GAIN=170

Cr_OFFSET=58

Cb_GAIN=170

Cb_OFFSET=58


507 User Menu:

Contrast=84

Brightness=34

Sharpness=30

Color=50

Tint=R50/G50


Panasonic DVD-RP82:

Component output to component 1 input on 507

Progressive Scan=On

Mode=Cinema1

Black Level=Lighter
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Tom,


Did you change your delay setting? I was told "DO NOT TOUCH THIS" yet I'm finding everybody's is slightly off. I only know of default settings on 4 units so far but they are all slightly different.


PhilB - 507 - 222

Toms - 507 (I think) - 224

Mine - 437 - 219

Another 437 poster - 218


Waiting for others to post to find a pattern if any.
 

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You told me not to touch it! :)


No, the setting of 224 for delay is the default setting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by mgold1999
My delay default is 219 (437w, version 109).


Matt
Does yours carry across all inputs at 219?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Here's a small update......I've not done much lately, trying to let the wife simmer down from the first two weeks I spent screwing around with the set. :rolleyes:


My main accomplishment over the weekend was final instsalllation. I received my line conditioner and missing cables on Saturday so I was finally able to make all of the final cable runs and wrap it all up so there are no more cables running across the floor etc. Of course the power cord from the TV won't reach the conditioner and the conditioners power cord won't reach the dedicated HT outlet so I've still got another evenings worth of work ahead of me. I'm also running a new cable run to eliminate a few splitters and other connections......hopefully this will clean up the cable signal some.


I spent some time Friday night trying to tweak the SM just a little more for better blacks. I found that the SM suggestions posted here were counter productive for me......Y-Offset, CB-Offset etc. Many had turned the Y-Offset down into the low 50's range.....while this greatly increased shadow detail it did so by brightening all of the blacks. I was shooting for deep black with good shadows, I'd watch a dark scene in various movies to judge the effects each setting had. A black sky was used as a reference. When I decreased Y-Offset the sky would go from black with no crawling pixels to lighter gray as the blacks began to crawl with flickering colors. Leaving it at 60 seemed to maintain a steady black. CB-Offset was increased from 58-60 and made it even slightly better. This was as black as I could get the blacks to be. I then used the Gamma adjustment on my DVD player for the shadow details, it provides 7 steps between 0 and 100 for gamma adjustment. The cool thing about this is I could increase shadow detail at specific points in the IRE scale without effecting true black which was the problem I was having with the SM settings. I bumped up the gamma in the 20-30 IRE range a few points and got much better shadow detail without effecting the darkest colors. Overall the picture is getting much better but still seems to have a slight blue tint when displaying dark black screen. If you are watching in a dark room the screen certainly is much lighter than the surrounding blackness. I watched a few scenes from various DVD's on my PC monitor for comparison and the PC monitors blacks matched the blackness around the screen.....it was hard to tell where the monitor actually ended and the blackness of the room began......very nice picture. In comparison the DLP is easily distinguishable in the room even when displaying an all black screen......If I turn the lights up in the room so that it's a dimly lit room it's much easier to watch the TV because now I have no reference for black and the blacks look better. If I had to guess I'd say that my DLP can do no better than 15-20IRE. If I can get this aspect of its performace to improve I think I could be happy with it. Maybe getting the blue cast out of this range will make the blacks better.......My ISF tech is coming by Sunday to check out the situation so maybe we can make some progress.
 
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