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Discussion Starter #1
So some one used a camcorder to copy a private showing of Star Wars II, and passed it over the Internet. This will be used as an example of the need for DCMA protection.


- are they going to add HDCP to camcorders? Grandma can't have movies of the kids anymore?

- who on this forum would bother to watch this down-down rezzed film?


The Big Lie
 

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Just the opposite. This should be used as an example of why the DMCA should NOT be needed. No matter what kind of protection you put against the consumer, someone will find a way to distribute it. The music and movie industry are fighting a losing battle with the wrong people (consumers).


You question as to why would anyone on this forum watch such a low quality movie, again you cite an example of why the DMCA is useless. People will still PAY for quality, not copy protection. If you downres it, you lose the consumers that will actually PAY for this service, and if you copy protect it, you lose the consumers that want to make a ligitimate backup of what they just paid for.
 

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The NYT also stated that a more detailed copy of "Clones" has surfaced on the internet, created by a similar process. DMCA, DHCP, 5C, Macrovision, DVI etc etc etc would not in any way deter this form of piracy. I think that this is a prime example of the futility of these CP formats and their inability to stop piracy. I think the MPAA will find it a hard sell, to use this as an example for even more intrusive forms of liberty stealing technologies.


All that these systems do for the most part is cause the very people this content was created for and designed to be marketed to, to have to pay the price for the criminals that do profit from this sort of theft. I think this is more of a "black eye" for the MPAA and CP, than anything else.


I understand that this is not a HD digital copy, but then everything that I have read blows holes in the statements made by Hollywood and their representatives, that it's the bit for bit digital 1080i content they are trying to protect. Heck, they want to downrez component outs, whether they still officially propose this measure or not.


Check out the screen capture on a link on the DrudgeReport page. It is of amazing quality for a low rez pirated copy. If I were Hollywood, I would see this as a wakeup call, and re-think their protection schemes.


Next time I'll just tell everyone how I really feel, hee hee. :D


Ray
 

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Clearly, Grandma is a thief. So are all of you and me. None of us can be trusted, so we need some technology to keep us honest. I kind of wonder if we opened our wallets & said to the studios "How much do you want to stop calling us criminals?" Do you think they have a price? No, I didn't think so either.
 

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Ha-Ha! :p


This just proves the point that all the protection in the world for high quality souces and digital connections won't work because the vast majority of pirates don't give a rat's behind about quality and as long as we can see it with our eyes, a camera can see it too.


It is really funny how this is from a private screening, you would think that they would at least make an effort to check people out during the show.
 

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The Great Wall never stopped an invasion because it was manned by many people. There were always a few who would take a bribe and render the Wall useless. Copy protection is just like that. No matter how such "protection" is constructed it will always be breached because there is economic incentive to do so. This becomes an ego thing, I believe. Slowing down HD will cost the industry a lot of money, much more than will be supposedly saved by complicated protective measures that can be defeated by a bribe, a very clever programmer or even a camcorder. I wish these studio's were truly interested in the bottom line so that they would make HD available. Art
 

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I agree. What's to stop someone with a DVI-equipped HDTV from pulling the same camcorder trick down the line, somewhere? Or a theatre operator who's padding his profits with an honest-to-God HDTV camera? The whole CP idea is futile.
 

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No, no, no. You guys don't understand. This is proof that all video playback mechanisms, including personal computers, must legally required to only allow playback of hollywood certified media. Anything does not bear the first generation watermark of an official hollywood studio must be prevented from playing. This is the only way that our world-leading and nationally-strategic entertainment industry can survive in the digital age. If we don't mandate such access controls, we can count on losing the hundreds of thousands of jobs in the entertainment industry to people in 3rd-world countries that lack the moral strength to protect our entertainment content.
 

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I guess I see this a little different than some people. I don't think this is seriously about pirates copying HD programs off some server. Downloading 20 Gb of data even at broadband speeds just doesn't seem like it is worth it.

What I think it is about is DVDs. Hollywood has found a great revenue source in distribution of dvds. Currently, they have better pictures than what most average people can record (excluding the hd recorders and the dvd recorders), with perfect sound. Now imagine everyone can record off of PPV movies a perfect 1080i with 5.1 sound. What would this do to the current DVD sales? Other than the extra's you get (which some people may like) there would be no reason to purchase DVDs, and Hollywood gets one rental only.

What I think needs to aleviate this worry is something like D-Theater. This would generate a whole new revenue stream, based on high quality 28 Mbps transfers, something we'll most likely never get from broadcast source.
 

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The thing for Hollywood to do is to make and price HD DVDs (when the technology gets here) down low enough, and make pirating penalties high enough that pirating is simply an unattractive option and a waste of time. Why waste the time downloading and burning a movie to a DVD when a legit copy is waiting for you at Target for ten bucks?


Jah-Wren.. I'm STILL laughing my butt off.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Maybe a solution is to specify HDCP keys for HD-DVD disks and players/recorders. Assuming that home computers will eventually have HD-DVD burners, the keys would prevent illegal copying. Anyone who tries to supply players/recorders without the keys could be charged under DMCA for circumventing HDCP. The advantage of this is that MPAA gets the same level of copy protection they want, HDCP is not required anywhere else, we can keep our analog inputs, and won't get censored broadcasting. That the keys will be broken is a given, but that will happen under any scenario.


The only hole I can see is that it would still be possible to record to the hard disk of an HTPC, then burn a dozen (?) CD's as data files to pass around. Again, this would happen under any scenario. As noted above, if the HD-DVD is cheap enough, why bother.


Meanwhile totally oppose HDCP, it won't work, and it will cause infinite problems.
 

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We need to quit thinking exclusively about today's technology. There WILL be a terrabyte hard drive in the not too distant future, there WILL be the means to download DVD and HDTV quality movies as easy as Napster can download MP3 files today. Napster pretty well demonstrates that there are huge numbers of folks that will download tons of files for free, many more than they can possibly listen to just because they can.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Unfortunately HDCP won't stop that, for it will be surely hacked. However, even at 1.5 Mb/s, it would take about a day to download a 20 GB movie. Napster wasn't brought under control by CP. I suppose we will all have 45 Mb/s or faster lines in 10-20 years, but that will be a different world again.
 

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I can go to the theater (I have no car) , spend 10 bucks (I have no money) listen at the noisy kids next to me complain about their snot nosed sister that just wiped her boogers in my chair (I have no patience) or how cool pokeman is. I can pray to god that the fat guy sitting next to me has bathed and doesn't smell and doesn't have an MTD - MOSQUITO TRANSMITTED DISEASE

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/l...quitoborne.htm


Eastern equine encephalitis

Japanese encephalitis

La Crosse encephalitis

St. Louis encephalitis

West Nile virus

Western equine encephalitis

Dengue Fever

Rift Valley Fever

Yellow Fever


I live in south ga, the mosquito is the state bird here ya know.


Although my daddy always told me a bigger brain was better, I really don't care for it to grow with an MTD. I would probably only go see a few movies a month if all those things were not an issue. I would much rather sit at home and steal content from hollywood on my slow DSL connection a few times a month. I am not alone. There are millions of us. If they would give me a way to pay, I would have done that, the same with napster, but they didn't, so they are gonna lose. I don't wanna go to target, MTD problem again, could always mail the disc to me - that might work and probably will. Nice HDDVD packaging is always worth a few bucks. Still back to the issue, do you know how many handguns are sold every year and are owned by our citizens - what is the purpose of a hand gun? Is there any other use for one except to kill a human? Why isn't that tool outlawed? You know many lives are saved in countries where it is? My cousin Early wouldn't have killed his last three wives if he didn't have access to a handgun. *please no discussion on deterrant effect - I understand the nuclear issue perfectly - glad cousin Early can't get access to a nuke* Don't outlaw the tools, outlaw the use. Give us the tools unrestricted to copy this stuff, and then hire lots and lots of people to enforce the laws against copying, my cousin needs a job and would love to work as a cop - no more idle hands ya know. Help the economy and job market hollywood.
 

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Shades 57 said, "Still back to the issue, do you know how many handguns are sold every year and are owned by our citizens - what is the purpose of a hand gun? Is there any other use for one except to kill a human? Why isn't that tool outlawed? You know many lives are saved in countries where it is? My cousin Early wouldn't have killed his last three wives if he didn't have access to a handgun. *please no discussion on deterrant effect - I understand the nuclear issue perfectly - glad cousin Early can't get access to a nuke* Don't outlaw the tools, outlaw the use."


Handguns are used for target practice (Olympic Sport), hunting, varmit control (have you ever seen what an Armadillo can do to St Augustine Grass?), and home and self defense. Your statements and their premises on which you base them is just like your cuz's first three wives, "dead" wrong! BTW, what the he** was law enforcement in Georgia thinking of, letting ole Early out after his first murder? Hmmmm, therein lies the problem me thinks...


Lets see, Germany 1937, all guns in civilian hands are to be seized, we have the rise of Hitler and Nazism. Cambodia, Khmer Rouge seizes all weapons and millions die in the "killing fields". It goes on and on and on. Here in the United States, we live under a Constitution that recognizes certain rights. We have a Second Amendment guaranteeing that we have the right to own these tools. The Justice Department just made an in print definitive statement supporting the second amendment as doing this very thing.


As far as how many lives can be saved, lets see if I can figure this out. You must mean like this anti-gun law in Germany two weeks ago stopped that school kid from killing 14 Teachers and fellow Students! Oh yea, in Europe, no less in Germany, where the worlds most stringent gun laws are in effect, and this kid gets a gun and kills. Yea, really works well!!!


I have an idea, you can move to Communist China! They have virtually no copy protection laws, and they have no civilian owned weapons. One last thought, do you remember Tianamin Square? I still remember that civilian approaching the tank with a flower. He was only saved after someone pulled him from in front of the tank that was about to roll over his flower armed self. While I think that CP should protect the content providers, it should do so without squashing our rights, such as you have aspoused to want to do with your post.


BTW, you have every right to feel how you do, and to post it here as you have done. That is guranteed also, under the First Amendment to the Constitution. The right to create this document was also "won by the gun".

Maybe I should change my name to Ray Gun, hmmmmmmm. :D


Ray
 

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Interesting thread.

Guns:

Amazing how you can get both sides of an issue.

Guns, like video protection, confuse many people.


Guns are needed, because they work.

I had a snake come out of a lake, a very deadly one, and my neighbor went in to the house, got a hand gun and killed it.

The crime rate in towns that the average person can carry is lower than in areas where they are outlawed.

(No person will try to rob people that may be carring guns. They all go to where they are outlawed so they have the advantage)

This is not only my opinion, but many see it, and it is backed up by the constitution.


This is not meant to continue discussion, but people should step back and look at the whole story, think about both sides, and stop using tunnel vision.


As with guns, copy protection, has 2 sides.

It is like locks.

Locks keep honest people honest.

This is the same with keys for a car.

It stops some temptation.

In order to not temp honest people, we put locks on property, keys for cars, etc.


Remember, I am talking about average people.

There are thiefs out there, and it doesn't matter if you have a gun, lock you car, or have copy protection video, THEY WILL GET IT!.

The only difference is how much effort and is it worth it for the theif.


So it comes to, how much money does one need to invest in copy protection to get a return on investment [ROI].


And as stated before, if the copy protection makes it a problem for the average consumer, then they will loose big time.


I believe that Hollywood has a lot of Stupids reviewing copy protection.

They get lost in tunnel vision.

Copy protection used to work, before technology made copying so easy and cheap, that it has almost become furtile.

They have to add something, so law enforcement can prosecute the big time offenders, yet, will allow Joe consumer to copy for his own personal use.


Time is not on their side.

The longer they wait, the more money they will loose.
 

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1. Computers dont steal content, people steal content....


2. now and for the forseeable future there is no value to HD copies of content being passed over the net.. Forget the size of the files...


If i gave any of you an encoded atsc HD file from any HDNet show, you would need a decoder card that supported that file... Given the low cost of an ATSC decoder is $ 299, and the possibility of those cards being includedon the mother board of your off the shelf pc over the next 5 years is none and none. There is no value to distributed HD files except to someone who wants to invest in all the equipment required to make a business of piracy, which makes it far easier to find, go after and shut down.



This nonsense from hollywood about the "threat" of HD distributed on the net is just that total BS


m
 

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oops forgot the same thing applies to HD/DVD... You need a decoder some where.. You can copy all you want to HD/DVD , but if you want to play it back on your pc, you need that decoder.


If you use a device in the future , the DVD version of DVHS, then that device would have the decoder, and of course the studios would be able to offer compelling content with all the add ons like they are now with dvd which manages to sell quite nicely inspite of all the movies available on the net AND in DVHS AND in laser disc


and may I add, most importantly, and which no one talks about, there is a collectors market for 16mm and 35mm versions of films... They arent available right off the bat, but if you want to go into business and sell HD, DVD, VHS or whatever quality you like of a movie, just buy it in 35mm and convert it


One last tidbit.. Someone the other day told me that Disney only owns 750 movies that they created or have rights too... They own thousands of hours of content on tape.. Thousands and thousands.. WHen we all go HD, those are worth zippo, nada, nothing.. other than the occasional footage for documentaries.... Thats a huge writedown coming for our friends out west and that my friends is , imho, why they protesth so strongly



fighting the chicken little arguments wherever i can !


m
 

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I agree with George (#33027). Guns, locks, encryption. ...Devices to ensure a modicum of security - or a feeling of security, at least. All have their place.


One thing we disagree about is whether copy control can work now and in the future. It will work - and then it won't - and then it will again, and so on. Technology giveth and technolgy taketh away. The technological warfare between consumer electronics and content creation will not cease until the Sonyfication of the industry is complete - if then (remember that war is often good for business).


Some argue that content providers can price their wares low enough to provide an economic incentive for consumers to buy authorized versions instead of copying illegally. As the effort and cost of illegal duplication approaches zero, this argument fades. There are two choices: The Honor System; or the Security System. Which will work? Which will be better for society in the long run? Which question should be given the highest priority?!!!
 
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