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Home theater quality digital tuners for 480i

4220 Views 41 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  b1gmoose
As the final transition to digital broadcasting draws near, more people will come around who also may not yet be interested in changing to HDTV for a variety of reasons. Many will find CECB's completely unsuitable for their needs since most only have RF and composite video outputs and all have nothing but analog audio. SDTV Home theater owners will naturally be looking for higher quality components to prepare their systems for the switch to DTV.


In my particular case, I do not want an HDTV because I have a very nice and very expensive custom-built oak entertainment center that simply won't accommodate a 16:9 HDTV. The center television bay was specifically designed for a 32" SDTV. It additionally holds a black Bose center channel speaker that sits almost invisibly on top of the television. This set is more than adequate for our needs for as long as I can keep it in service. It presents a very nice appearance with the horizontal plane of the screen completely filling the bay. I have no interest in replacing it until it finally goes up in smoke. At that point I'll be forced to switch to HDTV because SDTV's may no longer exist.


This doesn't mean I'm not interested in acquiring the most appropriate digital tuner to complement my home theater system. With a high quality 6:1 Dolby/DTS system, I require digital audio. Since my existing home theater setup is contingent on component video, I also require this feature in a DTV tuner. A CECB will simply not fit my needs. Many ATSC tuners are available but it seems most have little pitfalls and drawbacks that prevent them from being the ideal choice. It's a balancing act to decide on the best possible option from all the available choices.


There's a wealth of information archived at AVS and I've attempted to take full advantage of it. However, it would be so much better and easier for those of us who are now searching and those who will come along later, if there was an area available to collect and share accumulated information about this particular application. Unfortunately, this type of discussion is not welcome in the CECB forum for the obvious reason our application requires non-qualifying equipment.


I ask for your tolerance in allowing people with this particular need to maintain a thread here in HDTV Technical forum. Such a thread will provide those who are interested a place to discuss such applications, post personal reviews and generally hash out the pro's and con's of the available components, thus enabling simpler and more well-informed equipment purchase decisions.


Thank you,

Don
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I own a Samsung DVD recorder with digital audio that passes through 5.1 to the stereo receiver. It has it's pro's and cons.


The thread for this unit is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=830743


I've also tried the Samsung HD (DTB-H260F) receiver, but my TV doesn't have component inputs so I couldn't see the menus. If you have the component inputs I would consider this.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=728392

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBri99 /forum/post/14123280


I own a Samsung DVD recorder with digital audio that passes through 5.1 to the stereo receiver. It has it's pro's and cons.

Thanks DrBri. I suppose I should be looking closer at DVDR based tuners. They're not my preferred option but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.
Tivax STB-T1


I wish I could love this receiver. It does just about everything I want it to do. It offers beautiful PQ to 480i with no zoom or aspect problems. It has perfect digital audio via Toslink optical.


Unfortunately, the Thompson tuner is very weak for what should be 4th generation. A signal as strong as -60.0 dBm lies right on the ragged edge of usability. I don't have another 4th gen tuner to compare it with but it the difference between this and a 6th gen LG tuner is as stark as night and day. I don't know about the QAM tuner since I have no way to test it.


It also seems to suffer from heat-related illness. The first unit I tested was a real problem and would reboot itself with painful regularly. The second unit suffered two instances of failure within the first few days of operation. One, a brief period of rebooting after 18 hours and one instance of total lockup failure that occurred on the third consecutive day of operation. From day 3 through day 11 of burning in, it has been bewilderingly faultless.


If it were not for these fatal flaws, it would be a great $85 solution. I can't recommend it due to my experience.
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Another box that would have digital audio out as well as added outputs(component, HDMI etc.) would be the HD "Tivax LX1000" While I can't personally suggest this box for various reasons that made it a bad fit for me, it did have all the features which "should" have made it a great box. Just not properly implemented. Maybe if they come out with a REV2 box it would have issues of the current box worked out. I personally didn't test the digital audio out function but did have problems with: No audio over HDMI and box automatically shutoff after ~5hrs which could not be defeated.

Anyway here's a link to the LX1000 for those who might be interested.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t=tivax+lx1000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Bouldrey /forum/post/14124064


Thanks DrBri. I suppose I should be looking closer at DVDR based tuners. They're not my preferred option but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.

If you intend to do any recording from a CECB or other external tuner, the built-in tuner from the DVD recorders usually will give you even better recording PQ than from an external tuner. You also don't have to worry about that "CECB tuner not being able to change channels to record from" problem. Just some things to consider.


The Panasonics have very good PQ and you can at least delete subchannels from the channel list, which you can't do with some models. Unfortunately, the channel changing is verrrrry slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski /forum/post/14127636


If you intend to do any recording from a CECB tuner, the built-in tuner from the DVD recorders usually will give you even better recording PQ than from an external tuner. You also don't have to worry about that "CECB tuner not being able to change channels to record from" problem. Just some things to consider.


The Panasonics have very good PQ and you can at least delete subchannels from the channel list, which you can't do with some models. Unfortunately, the channel changing is verrrrry slow.

Hey Ramm. Recording off tv isn't much of a a priority to me. The last time I did it was when the 2006 Monaco Gran Prix ran on time delay and overlapped the Indy 500.


I guess a DVD with digital tuner is the only way to burn the OTA dolby soundtrack to disk so it will be a useful thing to have around. As a main tuner, however, I'm bothered by things like slow boot to active tuner, slow channel changes, aspect control to 480i, dolby broadcast signal processing, program info and such as that.


Reliability also seems to be more of an issue the newer these things get. My old tank of a Samsung DVRD with analog tuner is still doing fine after several years and the antique Sony is still kicking after more years than I can remember but I hear the useful life of the new Panasonics can often be measured in minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff /forum/post/14127570


Another box that would have digital audio out as well as added outputs(component, HDMI etc.) would be the HD "Tivax LX1000" While I can't personally suggest this box for various reasons that made it a bad fit for me, it did have all the features which "should" have made it a great box.

Jeff, the tuner in this Tivax is pretty weak too, isn't it? Can you do an approximate rating of tuner performance against a 6th gen CECB or the Samsung 260?
Per my first long post on the LX1000:

"Weaker reception, not nearly as good as my Zenith CECB. It could not get one channel that is 66%(2/3 bar) on my Zenith. Same channel is 30% on my older Panny LCD and 60% on my Panny EZ-28 DVDR. Other strong channels were OK on the Tivax, but it's no DX'er thats for sure."


So I would not suggest the Tivax for anyone in a marginal reception area. It was OK for me in a strong signal area, my only marginal channel I never watch. I'd forgot about the bad reception. Good thing I have these forms to look back on


BTW digital tuner DVDRs do have a digital audio output, but will NOT record this to DVD. It only outputs Dolby from its tuner and commercial discs recorded in Dolby. Just wanted to clarify that. NO current standalone DVDRs record 5.1 to DVD. I think it's some Hollywood copyright paranoia thing. Hollywood does not want anyone recording digital video(HD) or audio(5.1) to a "removable-sharable" media. PCs kind of skirt this issue, I'm talking about standalone recorders. Even the TR-50 has been rumored to have removable drives that may only play on the device it was recorded on. IOW no sharing HDDs with friends or other TR-50's you may own. I sure hope this is not the case but I guess it is somewhat standard in DVRs that have external HDDs. Sorry to get OT but I just wanted to clarify what DVDRs can and can't do as far as digital audio. If you're not planning on recording stay clear of the buggy, slow DVDR tuners, although they indeed are a option to add to the mix of this thread.
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Thanks for the clarification. That's disappointing. I'm surprised there's copy protection on material that's freely and openly broadcast. It's got to be more bother than it's worth to make "personal archive disks" when the only source is pulling it from air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Bouldrey /forum/post/14128570


I'm surprised there's copy protection on material that's freely and openly broadcast.

Hi there


Jjeff implies that the restrictions are in the DVDR equipment. There is the notorious "broadcast flag", but that is almost never turned on. There was a recent incident of a broadcast that did have the flag turned on supposedly by accident, and maybe some Tivo or something actually obeyed the no-copy flag. Some people claimed that that was a secret test to see if anybody would notice if the flag was turned on. But there is no broadcast flag detector in my computer's PCI ATSC tuner, and I have been recording HDTV with 5.1 audio to hard disk.


Regards
Zinwell ZAT-500 ATSC/Viewsonic HD12


This one is a steal at $82 delivered which is a currently available price for the Zinwell. You can still pay between $300-400 for these units from various sellers, including Amazon. It has some very appealing features, a lot of memory and relatively few quirks. It's old tech and what scares me away is fear the tuner performance and reception may be on par with the Tivax although I'm beginning to believe Tivax is the chinese word for lousy reception. I'm thinking most 4th generation tuners will far surpass their performance.


Look here for an excellent review of the Zinwell and a link to a user manual:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1038067
Samsung DTB-H260F


If you utilize component video for your system, this one is clearly an excellent choice if you can live with some very minor quirks. The worst is when viewing 4:3 source on a HD channel. Your only valid viewing option is a pillarboxed display.


Whidbey resolves the question of tuner performance with exacting precision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whidbey /forum/post/14117645


I have compared the two. To be fair my CECB is an Insignia, but it's the exact same LG box as the Zenith.


Using PIP, I ran both boxes at the same time and tuned to a weak channel. The picture break-ups occurred pretty much simultaneously. There was not enough difference to make one box superior to the other in terms of tuner performance.

This box is not your best choice if you utilize s-video or composite monitor connection as it won't display OSD info on your screen. As a potential benefit to what many perceive as an oversight in design, you can probably view OSD info on your component connected monitor while recording to your composite connected recorder without polluting your copy with OSD info.


Most everything you ever want to know about the Samsung can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=728392
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I use a few of these for just what you mention Don.

http://us.lge.com/download/product/f...451/rc797t.pdf


They can be had for a very reasonable price if you know where to look and have 5th gen tuners. And they do QAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_z /forum/post/14129060


. There is the notorious "broadcast flag", but that is almost never turned on.

It is on 24/7 on all 5 of my stations, required by contract with FOX and Sony syndication.
PrimeDTV PHD-205


This one has no 480i output to component video but may be a valid option for systems limited to s-video. Tuner performance appears to rival the Samsung.
Words of wisdom from Rammitinski on 4:3 aspect control and gen 4 tuners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski /forum/post/14102316


Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Bouldrey /forum/post/14099645


Rammitinski, will you please estimate the size of your postage stamped picture?


I'm wondering if I'd get the same size stamp with the Samsung that I get with a Tivax which is 27½" diagonal on my 32".

I'd imagine it would be right around the same size as what the Tivax gives you (27 1/2" seems about right to my eyes). Most boxes display a 16:9 picture around the same size, give or take a hair on the top and bottom.


One exception to this would be my RS Accurian, which is noticably a little wider than average from top to bottom, although I kinda like it. In 16:9 mode it doesn't leave a lot of the screen uncovered, and doesn't really seem to (noticably, at least) cut any of the sides off to do so, yet it still looks entirely in proportion. I always watch it in zoom mode anyway though on the 480i 32" set, which is where it's at right now. It's giving me a sharper PQ than the Zenith CECB box was, although not quite as sharp and rich in color as the Samsung, which truly does appear almost HD-like on it. The last HD Digital Stream tuner, which was the same box under a different name, was like that, also (very sensitive boxes too, I must say, for having 4th gen. chips) - the Samsung's picture is average in height as far as comparing it to any of my other receivers. The only CECB box I've tried so far is the Zenith, and that was "normal", too.


I'm not good enough at math to really give you an exact per square inch figure (it was far and away my worst subject in school), and I don't have the H260F hooked up so I can't really tape measure it. It's boxed up and stashed away right now.


Really though, I'd say the Accurian/Digital Stream HD model was probably designed more with SD in mind unlike the Samsung. The Samsung is OK though if you've got an SDTV with component inputs and a zoom mode of it's own. If you didn't need a tuner with a newer chip design, and you could find one somewhere, I'd recommend the RS/DS over the Samsung for SD. The only negative is, you can't use the component out for 480I - only up to s-video. Decent guide, though. The Hisense USDTV tuner would also be a good choice, but it's a bit less sensitive, if that would matter to you (PQ's as good as or even better than the Samsung - although it can be buggier than the other two - but you can use the component out, if I remember right). The Accurian was $80.-$90. new on clearance, and the Hisense could be found new for $33.00 (by someone advertising a load of them in the Hisense thread here) last I knew of (don't think the Digital Stream version ever got down that low, though). I don't know what the going rate for any of them used would be at this point in time, though.


I know that certain used tuners (like all of the LG's and the Sony DVR's, etc.) command a real premium, so I'm not suggesting those. But there are also Sylvania's that are supposed to be good that might be found cheap that could fit the bill (Sears, and then BB in the end, mainly sold them). I don't really know too much about the features on those, though - I just remember reading that they were pretty good tuners. Funai's, I believe.


The Hisense thread is currently still very active here, but you'd probably have to search back a little bit for the RS/DS one(s) - if you're interested at all in reading about them. The Sylvania's would probably be found way back - maybe in the archives by now, even though the tuners are not really that old themselves (they're all 4th gen.). Then there's the older Samsung models, too - but I personally don't know how any of those handle aspect modes. But sensitivity-wise, I'm pretty certain that the RS/DS beats all of the pre-H260F Samsungs, the Hisense, and the Sylvania's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski /forum/post/14106608


The Accurian really isn't any less sensitive than the DTB-H260F. It's pretty exceptional for a 4th gen. model. The Sammy's just better with multipath. That's really the biggest improvement between the 4th and 5th gens. - not so much the sensitivity. But the new Zenith I had surely did best either.


Actually, the Accurian is getting in one VHF-lo channel better than the Samsung was (the infamous WBBM-DT).


Maybe you've heard more about the former Samsungs, or some other models that were not all that exceptional, even for 4th gen. boxes.


If you're borderline though, I can see why you'd want to get the newest technology possible. I'm kind of in that same situation myself for everything but my primary market (although the Accurian and the 4th gen. Sony I'm currently using are handling things very well right now, getting me many channels from over 60 miles away solidly, at least at night - even the Zenith couldn't get all of them dependably during the day).
Hi Don


I can appreciate your thinking. I have a not terribly expensive - but functional, since it displays my camera collection - oak cabinet with a TV bay for a 4:3 set. I carved out the inside edges (messy job) with a grinder, drill and dremmel, stained the carved parts (yeah the sides were only 1/4 inch thick in those areas) enough so that a 32 inch Sony LCD would fit in there. It is a nice solution and it's nice to have a clearer picture than before. So consider modifying the cabinet if you can figure a way to do it. Or, sell it and bite the bullet. The clearer pictures are worth it. At any rate, I am going to read your thread now and try to see if there's a CECB here for me, as I still have several 4:3 sets.
Hello mrow2. I've been looking at surgical options for years. As is, the limit is about a 27" HDTV. Not an attractive option. When the current TV blows, major surgery (and I do mean major) will allow for certain 42" widescreen units to work without looking too weird. Hopefully, before that time comes, the house and all it's amenities will be someone else's problem and we'll be retired to AISOM (an island south of Miami).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Bouldrey /forum/post/14129828

Samsung DTB-H260F


If you utilize component video for your system, this one is clearly an excellent choice if you can live with some very minor quirks. The worst is when viewing 4:3 source on a HD channel. Your only valid viewing option is a pillarboxed display.


Whidbey resolves the question of tuner performance with exacting precision.


This box is not your best choice if you utilize s-video or composite monitor connection as it won't display OSD info on your screen. As a potential benefit to what many perceive as an oversight in design, you can probably view OSD info on your component connected monitor while recording to your composite connected recorder without polluting your copy with OSD info.


Most everything you ever want to know about the Samsung can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=728392

Hi Don,


Given your recent experience with 2 Tivax units (manufactured by Michley Electronics Inc. in China), I can understand why you're ready to switch brands/countries.


The Sammy 260 has been great - Component video is a noticeable step up from S-video . There is a significant PQ improvement due to increased color saturation. It also has many more types of A/V outputs than a CECB. I would have bought two if our 36" TV also had component inputs. Zero malfunctions to date too. It suspect it will be much more reliable than the generic Chinese brands.


The following two expert reviews are very complimentary:
Per Ken H these are the ATSC non-CECB alternatives:
Quote:
Over The Air DTV/HDTV/Cable Clear QAM


Available Now:

· Samsung DTB-H260F $179 ATSC, Clear QAM

· Contemporary Research 232-ATSC $1050 ATSC, NTSC, Clear QAM, RS-232

· Tivax LX1000 $90 ATSC

· PrimeDTV PHD-205 $149 ATSC, Clear QAM, NTSC

· Pro-Brand / Digital Stream HD3150 $199

· Winegard RC-1010 $190 ATSC

· Digital Stream HD 5150 $219 ATSC

· CE Labs HD100AQ $240 ATSC

· Coby DTV-140 $139 ATSC (Clear QAM?)

· CaptiveWorks CW-3000HD $470 ATSC, FTA, Clear QAM, (Linux PC)

· TiVo HD $299 ATSC, CableCARD, Clear QAM, NTSC
Conspicuously absent from the above list are the following established reliable brands:

Hitachi, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sharp, Sony, & Toshiba.
I'm leery about Chinese made products. The Chinese have shown a significant disregard for ethics in business as recently demonstrate by:
  • Contaminated Heparin that killed several US patients
  • Pet food that killed many cats & dogs in the USA
  • And how many children's toys had to be recalled because of lead?

If you're considering Zinwell, See this review . I understand they also make the Winegard RC-1010. (I wish Winegard built their own unit.)


Given all the above information, what other model offers the combination of performance, features, and reliability of the Samsung DTB-H260F? And if you can find a reduced cost "open box" unit of the DTB-H260F as I did, this model is a very compelling purchase.


I hope this helps.
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