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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently have the Samsung LN52A650 with the Onkyo HT-S7100 an Xbox 360 with HD-DVD addon and a PS3 hooked up to one of these

Monster Power HTS 100 - Linky


Well on the read-out it will go from 121V down to 119V and will go back and forth between 121V and 119V.


I live in an apartment and I know power is usually crappy and want to make sure I have enough protection whether it be surge, brown out, black out, etc..


Should I get something like this??

APC 1.5 AV Power Conditioner - Linky


Or what are your suggestions?
 

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A computer UPS should do the job a lot cheaper… protect from surges, cleans up the power, and give you time to shut down when power fails without crashing equipment. I had a similar problem and a APC BE750G UPS worked for me and cost well less than $100.
 

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I have been looking for a good surge protector. I haven't really been looking at UPS units. I like the idea for sure. If you have thousands invested in your home theater why not spend ~$100 and make sure you have a good unit that stops surges and allows proper power off it the event of an outage.


Thanks for bringing this up again. The APC UPS you listed can be had for $70 ish
 

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if you only want "surge protection", than the top line APC or Tripp Lite surge protectors are excellent.


if you want "power conditioning" which addresses both high (surge) and low (sag) voltages, line transients and line noise, consider the the APC H15
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...gmentID=1&tsk=


I personally need the battery backup feature so I can shut my system down in an orderly fashion when power fails. I use an APC "Smart" UPS for this as it both backs up the power and conditions the line power similar to the H15 mentioned above. Why the "Smart" series.....it produces a true sine wave AC output when running on batteries, not the modified square wave produced by most low cost computer backup systems. Is that an issue....maybe! Power supplies in a/v equipment that use transformers to convert 120V AC to the voltages the equipment needs may (or may not) overheat when running on square wave AC power. Same thing for anything that uses a motor, like an LCD projector with it's color wheel and fan. Rather than testing all my stuff to see what would be effected, I just use an battery backup unit that produces pure sine wave output. APC Smart UPS units are costly new, but can be found heavily discounted on the web and purchased refurbished as well.

This is the unit I use, and it has functioned extremely well through multiple power outages (I live in a rural area - lot's of power problems).
http://www.refurbups.com/APC-Smart-U...0-APC-S1400NET
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I appreciate the replies..but I don't think the question was answered fully, but a lot of great information and direction was given!


I use the following Monster - stated above..Please check it out.


I live in an apartment and have the problem stated above.


Would the posted APC work, does it provide clean power? any backup?


I have a Computer UPS (Geek Squad/Cyber Power) 1285W, would this work like state?


Could I integrate that with my current UPS?
 

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Ah...I think your little small dips like that are normal. My buddy has a Monster conditioner as well and his does that.


The UPS you already have will probably work just fine.
 

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If you read the article i posted above you will see that your Monster does not protect you that well.


MOV bad,


Series mode good.
 

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THE BENEFITS OF SURGEX SURGE SUPPRESSION

Neil A. Muncy

Neil Muncy Associates

Toronto, Canada


Fundamental differences between Shunt Mode and SurgeX surge suppressors are examined. It is shown that the indiscriminate use of Shunt Mode surge suppressors in applications such as sound systems and computer networks can cause more problems than are supposedly eliminated by the use of such devices. Suggestions for optimal deployment of both types of devices are presented.


INTRODUCTION

Multiple sources of transient electrical noise (surges) including motors, HVAC equipment, photocopiers, power tools, etc, are present in all modern buildings. Surge energy conveyed by building power systems may also result from external sources such as nearby lightning strikes. To minimize the likelihood of injuries to personnel and damage to equipment due to electrical surges and accidental fault conditions, in North America the National Electrical Code (NEC) specifies that all exposed electrical equipment in building electrical systems is to be connected ("bonded") together and ultimately bonded (“grounded”) to an earth “Building Ground” connection at the electrical Service Entrance. This requirement is addressed by the building Equipment Grounding system.


Equipment Grounding (EG) systems incorporate combinations of conduits, raceways, and dedicated Equipment Ground conductors associated with the Hot and Neutral conductors of branch circuits. Connections to EG systems are made via the “U-Ground” contacts (often referred to as the “Green Wire”) in electrical outlets. By merely being “plugged-in”, installations of electronic equipment (computers, sound systems, etc.) are automatically “grounded” and thus made as safe as possible for operation by non-technical personnel.


NORMAL EQUIPMENT INTERCONNECTIONS CREATE “GROUND LOOPS”

Interconnections between groups of grounded electronic equipment via “network” cables (which incorporate dedicated signal and shield “ground” conductors) are commonplace. Inductive coupling of powerline surge energy into the “Ground Loops” formed by these multiple “ground” connections is inevitable, as current will flow in any conductive path (loop) exposed to the magnetic fields associated with nearby power conductors and electrical equipment. The consequences often appear as noise in sound systems, and mysterious computer network problems ranging from data corruption all the way to catastrophic failure of interface devices, and will be especially evident in installations involving equipment with Pin-1 Problems [1].


It is often suggested that "surge suppressors” (devices which limit the magnitude of surge energy) might address these problems. Power “Outlet Bars” with internal “Shunt Mode” circuitry are obtained and installed in various equipment locations throughout the building. While perhaps surprising, it is not unusual to find that the net results from these efforts often range from no difference at all through vague “improvements” to outright worsening of the original problem(s). In some cases the “improvements” first realized will unpredictably disappear after sometime for no apparent reason.


SHUNT MODE SURGE SUPPRESSORS

Shunt Mode surge suppressors operate by redirecting (shunting) incoming surge energy onto their associated EG conductors, with the result that the local ground reference potential rises due to the current flow through the impedance of the circuit path back to Building Ground. For a ground path length of more than a few feet, this impedance can be substantial, resulting in significant voltages with respect to other "grounded" areas in the building. Any and all equipment connected to a Shunt Mode surge protection device will thus experience an abrupt elevation of its local EG reference potential during surge events. For non-networked standalone applications this may be an academic issue. The additional drawbacks described below are considerably more serious, however.


MOV’S

Metal Oxide Varistors (MOV’s), the principal component(s) which divert incoming surge energy into EG conductors in virtually all Shunt Mode surge suppressors, exhibit a “fixed clamping voltage” characteristic, above which they rapidly change from virtual open circuits into low resistance conductors. For a transient surge duration of not more than a few milliseconds, the resulting power dissipation in MOV’s can be tolerated. In the event of a continuous overvoltage condition of any significant duration however, MOV’s rapidly heat up and then either permanently revert to their non-conductive state, or fail catastrophically with the attendant possibility of fire.


Irrespective of cost or manufacturer, the cumulative (sacrificial) effect of repeated surges over time will ultimately cause MOV’s to fail one way or the other. Recent MOV-based surge suppressor devices made to Underwriters Laboratories (UL) 1449–2 (2nd ed.) specifications incorporate a fuse element which disconnects the power in the event of catastrophic MOV failure. Older MOV-based devices do not have this feature, however, and non-catastrophic MOV failure leaves the attached equipment completely unprotected, usually without the knowledge of the owner! To ensure continuously safe operation, MOV-based surge protection devices should be tested on a regular basis.


SHUNT MODE SURGE SUPPRESSORS IN EQUIPMENT NETWORKS

It is not uncommon to encounter “Shunt Mode surge protected” equipment interconnected by network cables to other equipment elsewhere in a building which, for whatever reason are NOT connected to Shunt Mode surge suppressors. During a surge event, “unprotected” equipment will experience little if any elevation of its ground reference potential, whilst “protected” equipment will experience an abrupt and often substantial rise in its ground reference potential. The resulting surge currents flowing in network cable ground loops are thus considerably increased by the use of Shunt Mode surge suppressors at only one or some equipment locations rather than ALL locations involved in the network. Installing identical Shunt Mode suppressors at all equipment locations may reduce the magnitude of this problem, but only to the extent that the impedances of each ground path into which noise energy is shunted are the same, a condition which is not likely to exist in all but the smallest of systems.


THE SURGEX ALTERNATIVE

SurgeX surge suppressors act first as low pass filters which simply block the high-frequency (HF) components of powerline surges. The remaining low-frequency (LF) surge energy is diverted into a bank of capacitors where it is stored for the duration of the event and then slowly discharged back across the incoming hot and neutral conductors without involving any connection to Equipment Ground. SurgeX surge suppressors can thus be placed anywhere along a power circuit without the ground reference elevation disadvantage of Shunt Mode surge protection devices.


SurgeX surge suppressors incorporate “floating clamping voltage” circuitry which will withstand considerable over-voltage conditions of indefinite duration without damage or degradation of performance, and are UL certified to a Surge Endurance specification of A-1-1, the highest possible rating available [2]. Most importantly, SurgeX surge suppressors do not incorporate sacrificial components of any kind, effectively guaranteeing an unlimited service life without the requirement for testing and/or periodic maintenance.


THE BOTTOM LINE

During a surge event, Shunt Mode surge suppressors located at the equipment load end of a branch circuit will cause an increase of local ground reference potential regardless of manufacturer and/or price. Without periodic testing there is no guarantee of long-term protection due to the sacrificial nature of key components used in these devices.


SurgeX surge suppressors do not require periodic maintenance or testing, and do not cause an elevation of the local Equipment Ground reference potential during surge events regardless of where they are installed in an electrical power system. This is truly a quantum leap in real powerline SURGE PROTECTION!
 

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Its important to separate the 2 issues of power quality and line noise when looking at the function of surge suppression and line filtering:


The electrical power policy of the USA through the National Electrical Code is composed of input from reputable organizations: NEMA, IEEE, NIST and others, who recommend shunt type suppressors as part of a coordinated effort in surge mitigation in relation to power quality issues. These polices were designed primary to protect equipment and people, not improve the audio, video or data transmission quality.

http://www.nemasurge.com/buy/r-purchase.html


To clarify, to mitigate Line to Neutral and Neutral to Ground or Line to Neutral, Line to Ground, and Neutral to Ground implies shunt suppression and requires an NEC quality ground. Series mode is usually done between 2 power lines, if not just hot and neutral, and claims the ground has little to do with it 'suppression'.


UL 1449 specifies both shunt and series mode through MOV and filters in reducing power anomalies.


There is an entire section in Standler's book, an authority in surge electronics, that discusses the limitation of 'series mode' protection alone, which essentially is an inductance-capacitance filter, and this was written in 1989:




In 1995, in excess of 2 billion MOVs were already installed in the USA, per surge guru Francois Martzloff, and the rise of the MOV parallels reduction of surge issues after decades of surveys of power quality monitored through the USA. While other technologies exist, the MOV is a key player because it can be made very cheaply, thus its so widespread, and properly designed, is very effective.

www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Keeping%20up.pdf

www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Monitoring%20PQ.pdf


Damaging surges do not happen daily, so if MOV based devices were inadequate due to shunting to the ground, its inadequacies would be heard or viewed infrequently. Line noise from inductive devices like fluorescent lamps or motors could be heard more, but only if these devices were turned on.


A key issue is whether the MOV is inferior to a series mode device in protecting equipment against damage, but rather than argue this point, suggest that a majority of surge suppression devices used in the USA today even in severe applications classified as 'surge arresters', use MOV designs.


In regards to noise suppression for audio or video purposes, the SurgeX technology seems most appropriate. But before spending $130 on this device, why not try a $30 top end MOV based surge suppressor? An APC P11VNT3 claims noise reduction to -70dB while the UL 1449 specification calls only for -30dB.


SurgeX are warranted for 10 years, while a reputable MOV based suppressor is warranted for life. While responses from companies vary, the response of APC or Panamax in honoring that warranty has been true as per reports on the net.


Finally, this vendor claims that on testing a series mode device, they noticed that instead of absorbing and gently releasing noise to neutral, much noise appears in the neutral line, exposing any device not connected to the series mode suppressor, to the noise:

http://www.metertreater.com/pdfs/filterVSsuppressor.pdf



Certainly, there are 2 sides to a coin, both pros and cons to series and shunt mode devices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunViper /forum/post/15487177


THE BENEFITS OF SURGEX SURGE SUPPRESSION

Neil A. Muncy

Neil Muncy Associates

Toronto, Canada


Fundamental differences between Shunt Mode and SurgeX surge suppressors are examined. It is shown that the indiscriminate use of Shunt Mode surge suppressors in applications such as sound systems and computer networks can cause more problems than are supposedly eliminated by the use of such devices. Suggestions for optimal deployment of both types of devices are presented.


...


THE BOTTOM LINE

During a surge event, Shunt Mode surge suppressors located at the equipment load end of a branch circuit will cause an increase of local ground reference potential regardless of manufacturer and/or price. Without periodic testing there is no guarantee of long-term protection due to the sacrificial nature of key components used in these devices.


SurgeX surge suppressors do not require periodic maintenance or testing, and do not cause an elevation of the local Equipment Ground reference potential during surge events regardless of where they are installed in an electrical power system. This is truly a quantum leap in real powerline SURGE PROTECTION!
 

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I thought that the power supply through out the US is not that consistent. So wouldn't the shunt mode be deflecting small surges all the time. Then when the big surge hits it is worn out and your equipment gets fried. And I thought this would not happen with series mode.


Just wondering, I,m no sparky.


CV
 

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Hi CV:


The entire field of engineering dealing with this issue is called power quality. While the quality of the whole USA has risen considerably every year, what individuals actual get vary because of who delivers it, your local power company, contamination of the power lines by nearby industrial consumers, and then the quality of wiring in your home. For example, if you live in a neighborhood with overhead wiring, or if your home is older, both are prone to more problems with power quality. You may then need to add some power conditioners to get your 21st century gear to work with 20th century grade power.


In general, where the population is denser, you tend to have good power quality, just as with Internet connectivity, you get the fastest, latest and most reliable Internet speeds in more populated areas ... also good networks and servers need good power to run reliably.


A good plug-in MOV based surge protective device, SPD, if it had to work often due to bad power in your personal situation, will eventually fail and not work. A good suppressor should disconnect your equipment when it fails, and signal you with a light that it no longer works. So when the 'big surge' does occur and your SPD is broken, your equipment is effectively disconnected from the power already.


The problem with MOV base designs is that its so easy to make, so many companies are selling them but few are good designs: they sell based on a nice case, fancy plugs and colors, use questionable claims directed at the audio video market, but are not best made for surge protection. At the very least, I know APCs are well made, but other brands, even popular ones like Belkin and Philips, I've personally opened and examined, are very variably bad. You are looking to spend $10 for a basic power only SPD, $20 for one with phone line protection, and not more than $35 for one with coax, Ethernet, phone, and power protection.


Even if meant to disconnect your gear from power line, some MOV based designs do not disconnect your equipment after a failure, some designs do so unreliably, while few work very well.


Unfortunately, there are no studies or compilations of which brand MOV SPD protects equipment best, not even by Consumer Reports. There are a lot of anecdotes on the Internet of folks complaining, usually because the warranties were not honored. Assuming the poster isn't lying, this is one such report, its interesting because if true multiple devices were plugged into many SPDs:

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B00000J1RU/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending



Of MOV based designs, APC, Panamax, Tripp Lite are very reputable, but I have not had a chance to dissassemble Panamax to examine their claims personally.


In surges, a series mode device assumes than the surges that enter your home are usually lower energy. The series mode devices are usually heavy duty 120V power line filters, that are made to take the worse case scenario of surges, which rarely if ever happens. However, if the surge energy is too great, then a series mode device once saturated will pass its energy onward to the plugged in device, with nothing typically should happen to itself, unless the insulation of the device is exceed and it breaks down.


We speak of surges as if they were one type of problem, its actually just a common name for 7 types of power line problems.


1. Transients, random bursts of excess voltage in nanosecond durations; 2. Interruptions, at least zero voltage at at least half of one AC cycle; 3. Sag / Undervoltage, under 90% of rated voltage at at least half of one AC cycle; 4. Swell / Overvoltage, above 110% of rated voltage at at least half of one AC cycle; 5. Waveform distortion, any deviation from a pure sine wave; 6. Voltage fluctuations, a periodic recurring combination of 3 & 4; 7. Frequency variations, more than +/- 3 Hz.


SPDs cover items 1, 4, 5. 1 & 4 can damage home electronics quickly and quietly, and thus should be suppressed to as near 120V as possible. The source for 1 & 4 include natural phenomena such as storms, and thus, cannot be controlled by power company's completely. SPDs will also control 6 when the fluctuation exceeds 120V.


5 typically causes performance degradation such as poor audio or video quality but in severe cases can cause overheating, its fixed by line regulators or an uninterruptible power supply, UPS. Often, 5 is caused from nearby industrial machinery.


Items 2,3,6 are tolerated by most home electronics well. If devices don't act erratically, they tend to turn themselves off due to the anomaly or after overheating. However, if it chronically reoccurs, it eventually can damage equipment, and the user should add a UPS or a voltage regulator.


7 is rare for home users, and commonly occurs from home power generators. Its more a problem for AC motors than run for long duration, causing them to run inefficiently and overheat.


Series mode devices only protect you from #1.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunViper /forum/post/15562650


I thought that the power supply through out the US is not that consistent. So wouldn't the shunt mode be deflecting small surges all the time. Then when the big surge hits it is worn out and your equipment gets fried. And I thought this would not happen with series mode.


Just wondering, I,m no sparky.


CV
 

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During Katrina I lost everything and I had the MOV type protection.

During Gustov I had Series Mode and everything was saved.


During Katrina I was in Eastern Europe and in Detroit during Gustov.

but the power was off and then it was on before I returned.

Thanks for the info and i will consider it before the next storm. Maybe I should just unplug everything during Huricaine Season before I leave town. (haha)


Thanks

Dean
 

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"cajunviper"

you last comment, possibly meant as a joke, is by far your BEST option. A/V equipment, computers, networking equipment....anything that does not need to stay on, including appliances like the water heater (and cold water feed into it) and the water feeds to the washer should be disconnected and/or turned off when you are out of the house for extended times.
 

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All things are possible. Unplugging is your best bet, truly, but include also all cables entering devices: telephone lines, data lines, and power lines.


Do you recall which brand MOV surge protector you used?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunViper /forum/post/15572621


During Katrina I lost everything and I had the MOV type protection.

During Gustov I had Series Mode and everything was saved.


During Katrina I was in Eastern Europe and in Detroit during Gustov.

but the power was off and then it was on before I returned.

Thanks for the info and i will consider it before the next storm. Maybe I should just unplug everything during Huricaine Season before I leave town. (haha)


Thanks

Dean
 

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There is some mis-information on this thread about SurgeX versus BrickWall, and ZeroSurge. I researched the products for 6 or 7 months and chose SurgeX for its superior technology.


ZeroSurge, BrickWall, and Torus Power are licensees of SurgeX, not the other way around, and yes, SurgeX can take a 3000A, 6000V ( 18 million Watt ) spike and, unlike the other 3 companies, stop it dead in its tracks. No voltage whatsoever leaves the box, not on the ground or on the neutral wire like the other 3 companies. The other 3 companies are using old 1990's series mode 2-wire technology. SurgeX has gone way beyond that, and the other companies cannot use the new 3-wire technology because of the SurgeX patents.


For those of you in Hawaii, the Pacific North Western/ Hawaii region ( Washington State ) and National Sales representatives for SurgeX will be in Honolulu on business from Oct 26 to Oct 28. They can clear up the confusion that exists about any technological questions and the relationship between the 3 companies as well as a Canadian company, Torus Power. You can find his name and phone number on the surgeX.com web site.
 

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Hi All,


The issue of power surges and spikes should include the issue of regulation. Power regulation not only includes the suppression of spurious spikes and transient drop outs, it also includes the regulation of power line frequency and stability. After years in computer service the best bet is alwaysd going to be a UPS that is at 75-85% under load. In order for anything to filter into the connected equipment it has to overcome the battery and switching circuits that are feeding the equipment that is connected to the UPS. The battery prevents power sags and spikes (brown outs and over-voltage) that tax the power supply in the equipment and prevent it from operating at a level that can damage the compnents that make up the device. Also the power supplies in all equipment are very susceptable to variations, even small ones in line frequency. The devices that make up a P/S (power supply) are designed to operate in a very narrow frequency range of 60 hz (USA). Even variations as slight a 3 HZ can cause problems with marginal P/S's. If you are considering protecting your 2,3,4thousand dollar system it makes no sense to try to save a couple hundred dollars by not providing the best line feed and signal feed protection you can afford. Further the UPS can continue to protect your next system. Yes I have UPS on my DSL mdoem, both PC's, and my home entertainment system. It took less than $500 and some careful shopping to get good UPS protection for all that equipment. JMHO
 
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