[Javs]

Hi All,

Looks like the house I am going to build will be using Hebel construction rather than brick veneer. So I guess its hebel panels attached to a wooden frame.

Anybody got experience with hebel homes? I am going to be doing a clip and channel theatre, but just thought that hebel was a render over brick, but now realise its actually full panels... The documentation for Hebel suggests its actually got quite good acoustic properties. But I want to hear from people who have actual experience with it?

Thanks.

 

[frenchfries]

Funny, I have the same coming. I work at a school of architecture and built environment so I asked about hebel's properties as I find manufacturer lead studies quite suspect.

I was told that it is better but I stopped short of actual testing as we had hebel blocks on hand but not panels and cutting them is very messy work.

Maybe I can convince an academic to write a paper, or perhaps easier, there might already be some research available.

I'll take a look and let you know if I find anything.

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[BIGmouthinDC]

If they are putting the panels as the exterior boards I don't see how it would change your plans to do a clip and channel theater. Looking at their documents/videos I get the feeling they also use their panels for separation walls in multifamily structures. Condos and Apartments. In that application acoustic properties would be of more importance than exterior cladding. I do see they offer a line of product for interior partition walls, If you used those for theater walls then it raises a lot more acoustical questions. We know that concrete walls can be a benefit as a part of but not the only component of a wall system, not sure about aerated concrete.

 

[Javs]

If they are putting the panels as the exterior boards I don't see how it would change your plans to do a clip and channel theater. Looking at their documents/videos I get the feeling they also use their panels for separation walls in multifamily structures. Condos and Apartments. In that application acoustic properties would be of more importance than exterior cladding. I do see they offer a line of product for interior partition walls, If you used those for theater walls then it raises a lot more acoustical questions. We know that concrete walls can be a benefit as a part of but not the only component of a wall system, not sure about aerated concrete.

So I found some more info. The panels used are called Hebel Powerpanel XL, and they are 75mm thick. They are screwed into the wooden frame using metal top hat channels with an air gap.

I did find a pretty in depth document talking about the acoustic properties, but the numbers start at the 100mm panel and go up to 200+mm so its not exactly the panel I will be using.

However I did find another document specifically for the XL panel, and no graphs or anything but it did say this, though I am honestly not sure how to interpret Rw+Ctr numbers:

Acoustic: Rw + Ctr 35 to 39 based on a 210mm wall system thickness.

I am assuming the 210mm system is this:

Wait, this is the 75mm XL panel... Looks like this is the data I am after, though still not really sure how to interpret those Rw+Ctr numbers. I am fairly certain my house will be 90mm timber frame and using the 35mm hat channel for the Hebel.

So my numbers seem to be Rw 42 and Rw+Ctr 27. Im just reading up now what Rw and Ctr mean.

 

[Javs]

What does Rw mean?

The Weighted Sound Reduction Index (Rw) is a number used to rate the effectiveness of a soundproofing system or material. Increasing the Rw by one translates to a reduction of approximately 1db in noise level. Therefore, the higher the Rw number, the better a sound insulator it will be.

Interesting, so the hebel system before even looking at things like greenglue and clip and channel on the inside will reduce sound transmission by approx 42db...

What does Rw+Ctr mean?

Ctr is an adjustment factor which is used to account for low frequency noise - typically the biggest problem with sound insulation. Ctr is always a negative number, so the Rw+Ctr will always be less than the Rw value. Many sound insulation types will represent how effective they are by displaying the Rw/Rw+Ctr values together.

So my Rw and Ctr number is 27. So I guess this accounts for low freq. Interesting to note above, if I were to switch to steel frame, this number would go up to 33... Wonder why. I can do steel frame if I want, but I think that's going to make the actual theatre build a nightmare.

 

[frenchfries]

Rw and ctr are a little like stc in that it's about how much sound is stopped from passing through. My issue was the same as yours when I went through it, no decent data in the panels at 75mm thick. Presumably we're taking metricon here. The problem is that iirc they have different standards, weightings I think. Anyway if I have time tomorrow, I'll go through it again and see if I can't find out more.

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[Peter M]

For uniform monolithic masonry type elements, the STC will be related to density and weight.

So with Hebel you have 75mm at around 600kg/m3 = 45kg/m2.

Normal brickwork is 110mm at around 1600kg/m3 = 176kg/m2.

Brickwork will have a higher STC but I have no idea what the difference might be.

Cheers,

 

[Javs]

Rw and ctr are a little like stc in that it's about how much sound is stopped from passing through. My issue was the same as yours when I went through it, no decent data in the panels at 75mm thick. Presumably we're taking metricon here. The problem is that iirc they have different standards, weightings I think. Anyway if I have time tomorrow, I'll go through it again and see if I can't find out more.

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No it's Mcdonald Jones. They install as per manufacturer specs, they should certainly not have different standards to do it.

Powerpanel XL is what they use in the home, its 75mm thick, I posted all the acoustic data for it above, I found it

Attached is how they specifically do it.

 

[Javs]

I did find this for Brick Veneer, yeah it seems Hebel is quite inferior for acoustic properties overall...

Hmm that makes it tough, my house is going to be Hebel, I suppose I could ask them to brick veneer that rooms walls, but I feel like that's more trouble than its worth.

 

[Peter M]

Yes that is a big difference.

Sorry - not trying to be difficult - I only raised it as I know you're concerned about the neighbours !

Cheers,

 

[niterida]

Why not build it out of ICF - Insulating Concrete Forms - STC of 52db !!


I used to be a subcontractor building ICF homes here in Australia and IMHO it is the best method of construction available

 

[Javs]

Yes that is a big difference.

Sorry - not trying to be difficult - I only raised it as I know you're concerned about the neighbours !

Cheers,

Yeah I am actually literally only doing this because of neighbours. But they will be within a couple metres of that outside wall, so I may as well do the best I can.

I am wondering if since I will be doing a full clip and channel system, this is not a particularly big deal once that system is in place.

 

[Javs]

Why not build it out of ICF - Insulating Concrete Forms - STC of 52db !!

I used to be a subcontractor building ICF homes here in Australia and IMHO it is the best method of construction available

I am using a volume builder. Its either brick veneer or Hebel.

Hebel is what they want to use, and frankly, what I would prefer right now too, house will go up faster (saving dead money on rent and build speed), it actually looks great, and has very good thermal properties.

I actually have to put my theatre second to the overall home. So I will just make the best of the situation.

Brick veneer to the theatre room should be possible though, but the theatre is the whole front quarter of the house, I feel like they will say marrying that to hebel for the rest is silly.

Hebel should perform about as well as in interior wall surely with regular gyprock. So when I add clip and channel and greenglue etc, I wonder if the STC will go high enough its not much of a worry, I need to look at this data more. The Gyprock Red Book seems to be excellent, has the acoustic properties of every building method in the country, sans furring channel and green glue lol

 

[niterida]

My last house was double brick with EPS balls (the same as bean bag fill - in fact it was bean bag fill) and double glazed windows. The noise transmission to outside was virtually zero - only the very low bass could be heard unless I turned it up excessively loud. My neighbours were 3 metres away and they said they never heard it except for the occasional explosion.


Now imagine walls with 2-3 times as much EPS thickness and much denser EPS and a solid concrete core.
If your neighbours are only a couple of metres away then ICF will be their best option.
If you can I would suggest you explore getting a different builder.


Not only that but the ICF house will be a much better quality and cheaper to run home. I live in country Western Australia where it gets down to 1-2 degrees Celsius in winter and over 40 in summer and my ICF house doesn't have any heating or cooling except solar-passive and ceiling fans.


I only just noticed you are in Sydney - I can out you on to a reputable ICF company that will be able to source a builder for you if you like ?

 

[frenchfries]

Whoops, I realised after reading the thread that I was concerned with thermals rather than noise. I probably don't have anything to add except I can provide some info once mine is done.

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[Javs]

My last house was double brick with EPS balls (the same as bean bag fill - in fact it was bean bag fill) and double glazed windows. The noise transmission to outside was virtually zero - only the very low bass could be heard unless I turned it up excessively loud. My neighbours were 3 metres away and they said they never heard it except for the occasional explosion.


Now imagine walls with 2-3 times as much EPS thickness and much denser EPS and a solid concrete core.
If your neighbours are only a couple of metres away then ICF will be their best option.
If you can I would suggest you explore getting a different builder.

Not only that but the ICF house will be a much better quality and cheaper to run home. I live in country Western Australia where it gets down to 1-2 degrees Celsius in winter and over 40 in summer and my ICF house doesn't have any heating or cooling except solar-passive and ceiling fans.

I only just noticed you are in Sydney - I can out you on to a reputable ICF company that will be able to source a builder for you if you like ?

Thanks but thats OK, We are already down the track a bit with these guys.

Like I said, theatre is down the list on our needs (I'm prioritising things pretty realistically here). I wont jump ship to another builder only because of this room. So many other reasons why I am going with these guys right now and not custom builders. Well, price is the biggest reason actually, if I change the house construction method to something left of field for these guys, apart from probably declining outright, its going to cost a ton more.

I may be able to get a thicker 100mm Hebel across the line though, or the denser 75mm, I've just realised that the PowerPanelXL is a 20% less heavy/dense version of the normal 75mm. That explains a fair bit of the reasons for the even lower Rw+Ctr numbers. I could probably still get full brick veneer to happen too, its actually the standard option. But then the house has to be rendered etc, I hate brick face. Eh, will have to weight it all up.

I might need to contact these hebel guys, because the data is conflicting, here are some figures for previous tests:

Big difference from the now more recent tests showing Rw 42 / Ctr 27

I wonder which is actually accurate.

 

[Javs]

Ok after some pretty careful consideration, Hebel is out, brick veneer is in. It wont be a problem to use brick veneer. It should have great performance when paired with soundproofing methods.

Here is a bunch of data...

Rw / Rw+Ctr

Hebel Exterior wall 49/26

Brick Veneer Wall + 10mm Gyprock

59/51

13mm Fyrchek x2

63/56

Standard 10mm Gyprock internal wall (2nd column is 90mm stud depth)

34/25

1 layer 13mm Fyrchek each side

42/33

2 Layers 13mm Fyrchek each side.

49/41

Rondo Clip and Channel with 2 layers 13mm Fyrchek each side. (This looks to orientate vertically, but I will do it horizontal as I am guessing it really should be used.)

59/50

 

[BIGmouthinDC]

I don't think I would sacrifice the look of a house for the sake of the STC of one room, just build the inside of the one room better.

 

[Javs]

I don't think I would sacrifice the look of a house for the sake of the STC of one room, just build the inside of the one room better.

The house will look identical. In fact the show house I saw was supposedly rendered brick too. And I thought it was excellent.

Apart from the stc the idea of weak and brittle Hebel wasn't sitting well with me. The more I read about it the more people are saying it can crack easily and you can take chunks out of it with an edge trimmer if you aren't careful etc...

Anyway, moving on.

 

[Peter M]

I think that's a good decision.

As well as the much better performance for theatre room sound containment, it'll also keep a hell of a lot more external noise out of the whole house.

Cheers,