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How bad is non-masked viewing?

1693 Views 18 Replies 12 Participants Last post by Richard Tywoniak, Mar 14, 2005

KenLand

Discussion Starter · Feb 21, 2005

I'm not exactly sure what my optimal screen size will be so I'd like to get a screen I know is too big and experiment.

My question is how does too much white screen around the active area affect viewing?

I guess the better question is how much does black masking improve viewing?

Now, I project on to a wall and don't notice any problems from the white suround. In fact I wonder if the white surround doesn't equate to bias lighting and help with the blacks?

Thanks!

Ken

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1 - 19 of 19 Posts

Art Sonneborn

· #2 · Feb 21, 2005

What projector do you plan on using ?

Art

KenLand

Discussion Starter · #3 · Feb 21, 2005

I've decided on the Sony Cineza HS51, but am dragging my feet in case the Canon SX50 Realis actually ships.

In the meantime I borrow business XGA DLP's from work.

I'm leaning toward toward the Da-lite High Power in 96"x96". Instead of pulling it down, I'd like to pull it up from the floor to about 55" from the floor.

This setup covers my maximum possible active screen area. I would then be able to adjust the active area to suit all variables. (AR, SDE, distance from the floor, etc.)

This is well and fine as long as the extra non-active screen isn't visually harmful to PQ.

Ken

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Art Sonneborn

· #4 · Feb 22, 2005

My feeling is that you may be distracted if you have no masking. The reason I asked is that with CRT although better you really don't see the borders due to the very low black level.

Art

KenLand

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 22, 2005

Thanks Art,

I think I've decided to go with the 96" wide High Power model B. It's so cheap that I can view it as exploratory spending if It's not perfect.

I wonder if there is a poll showing how many people use and don't use masking. It occurs to me that most probably don't use masking, and get at least two sides non-masked and non-bordered on many movies. (ie 2.35:1 or 4:3 movies on a 16:9 screen.)

I can see why masking would make sense in a black-is-black crt setup, but I have doubts about placing black hole velvet next to digital-black.

Hmmm....

Ken

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suffolk112000

· #6 · Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by KenLand
Thanks Art,

I think I've decided to go with the 96" wide High Power model B. It's so cheap that I can view it as exploratory spending if It's not perfect.

I wonder if there is a poll showing how many people use and don't use masking. It occurs to me that most probably don't use masking, and get at least two sides non-masked and non-bordered on many movies. (ie 2.35:1 or 4:3 movies on a 16:9 screen.)

I can see why masking would make sense in a black-is-black crt setup, but I have doubts about placing black hole velvet next to digital-black.

Hmmm....

Ken

Well, I am going to be using masking for my 58X104 inch HCCV Da-Lite screen... when my theater is complete.

I think most of the digital projectors perform better with it. But some of the higher end units can get by with out it. For example, a friend of mine has the Sharp 12K with a Stewart dark screen and while it helps his situation, I think he could get by with out masking. Masking eliminates a lot of reflections in the room. It also helps punch up the black levels.

Art, just has to rub it in that he has a CRT stack and does not need masking.

Craig

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Art Sonneborn

· #7 · Feb 22, 2005

Craig,

Pretty much all of the meets the members had masking with their digitals haven't they ?

Art

KenLand

Discussion Starter · #8 · Feb 22, 2005

I'll have to experiment or read some real science on the subject.

"Punching up the blacks" is the opposite of what needs to be done on digital.

That is exactly what I would expect to happen though. You put true black next to digital black and digital black looks even less black.

Searching the forum the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that for digital you need bias lighting (digital is very bright, but poor blacks) and for crt you need masking. (crt is dim with very black blacks)

Anyone have some true science references?

Ken

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suffolk112000

· #9 · Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
Craig,

Pretty much all of the meets the members had masking with their digitals haven't they ?

Art

Art, yes, as a matter of fact I think you are correct.

You are the only that I have seen that does not have it and you have a CRT.

Rons new theater will have masking and even VDMathew had a pretty ingenious idea of a manual masking system that had velvet covered boards on hinges that he could adjust with the size of the image.

I think masking is a must if you have a digital pj.

Craig

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suffolk112000

· #10 · Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by KenLand
I'll have to experiment or read some real science on the subject.

"Punching up the blacks" is the opposite of what needs to be done on digital.

That is exactly what I would expect to happen though. You put true black next to digital black and digital black looks even less black.

Searching the forum the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that for digital you need bias lighting (digital is very bright, but poor blacks) and for crt you need masking. (crt is dim with very black blacks)

Anyone have some true science references?

Ken

Right now, the pj's that produce the best blacks are CRT's. Although I have not seen a Qualia.

DLP and LCD projectors, while much improved are not as good as CRT's. At least in my opinion.

Craig

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fleaman

· #11 · Feb 23, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by KenLand
I'll have to experiment or read some real science on the subject.

"Punching up the blacks" is the opposite of what needs to be done on digital.

That is exactly what I would expect to happen though. You put true black next to digital black and digital black looks even less black.

Searching the forum the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that for digital you need bias lighting (digital is very bright, but poor blacks) and for crt you need masking. (crt is dim with very black blacks)

Anyone have some true science references?

Ken

Only a real world experience for me.

I have a Optoma H30 and tried black velvet borders.....I didn't like it.

My room is not dark, kinda an off-white, so with all lights off and projector on, my room 'Lights up' to a degree. With the black velvet boarders it was very obvious to me that my on-screen blacks were far from being black. To ME, it was too much of an distraction, the velvet was blacker and darker than anything in the room...really did look like a 'Black Hole' !!!

I prefer no black velvet boarders....just makes my digital blacks seem a lot less black. Maybe if my room had dark walls, they would blend better with the velvet and not make it so obvious.

For me, I prefer to have the boarders right at the edges of the screen, no black masking. My screen is about 2-3" in front of my wall, so it stands out (boarders) enough for me.

Fleaman

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Orlando

· #12 · Mar 1, 2005

I've tried both with and without a mask with a DLP Projector and it made a huge difference for all of us. So much so that when I recently upgraded my screen my wife was really supportive and insistent that we spend the extra for the electric masking. Before we were using a home made mask and putting it up using clips and magnets.

TheFerret

· #13 · Mar 1, 2005

Art does have a point about being distracted. In fact, the masking may also present a distraction if you are like me. I am constantly looking at my reference black (screen wall painted flat black) and [unlit] white (unused portion of my Draper M1300 screen).

triodeuser

· #14 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by suffolk112000

Rons new theater will have masking and even VDMathew had a pretty ingenious idea of a manual masking system that had velvet covered boards on hinges that he could adjust with the size of the image.

Craig

Craig -

Is VDMathew spelled correctly? I did five or six searches and have not been able to come up with anything on this.

I'm very interested in this. Please give me more info or some sort of pointer.

Might just be me - for some reason I never do as well with search engine here as I do other places - never have figured out why I have problems with it - Duhh

Regards

Ken L

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bluegreenturtle

· #15 · Mar 6, 2005

try VDAMatthew

704set

· #16 · Mar 7, 2005

A search under VDAMatthew came up with no masking threads in both the current and archived threads. Anyone have the link to the thread?

Skip

geekinthehood

· #17 · Mar 9, 2005

I don't yet have either a projector or screen, so I might be missing some aspects of the real world in my opinion, but here it is:

I'm also planning on getting a screen much larger than my anticipated image size. Unless you have an expensive/complicated masking system, the image will only match the screen's aspect ratio some of the time. The other times, you have an image that is unmasked on at least 2 sides. I briefly considered going with a constant hight image, but it seems like that would waste a lot of pixels. After looking at a lot of screen-shots, I decided that the real issue was projector contrast ratio. That's what determines if, in a darkened room, you see grey or black. Masking can't improve it with low contrast projectors and (in my opinion) isn't needed with high contrast projectors. Although I don't plan on getting a CRT, contrast ratio is now one of my top priorities. (the other being low cost - we'll see how well *that* works...)

--darren

T_MINTON

· #18 · Mar 13, 2005

I thought I would chime in here to see what ya'll think. I have an HT1000 that has built in masking. Do any of you think I would see improvement if I went with a masking system?

Richard Tywoniak

· #19 · Mar 14, 2005

I have a LCOS DILA G15 and masking makes a huge difference. I am upgrading to a JVC HD2k and I now have to figure out how to mask the bottom as there is no lens shift. If anybody has ingenious masking examples I would be very interested. I will pay money for a projector but I just can not bring myself to pay for expensive masking devices. manual systems seem to work just great.

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

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