[TomT99]

I'm currently projecting on a wall and am about to buy a screen but watching a movie the other day I realized it wasn't immersive enough and moved my chair forward more. I soon became used to this and it too lost its effect and I moved even closer.

Now it is at about 8' from a 106" image on my wall. Will I continue to want bigger and bigger or is there a sweet spot I will reach that is just the perfect size/distance ratio for my eyes? I'm just worried I'll buy a screen and it will lose its effect and leave me wanting more.

Right now I'm looking at a 150" 16:9 Elite that I will be sitting 11.75' from. It's $231.55. I've been told that rolled up slightly to make a 2.35 screen it will be 141". The question is, will this satisfy my needs for immersiveness or will I eventually want more, and how much bigger can I go before compromising picture quality? It also looks like that is the biggest screen I can get in that price range, after that it jumps up over $400. I'd love to make this work if I can but want the most immersive experience possible.

 

[jarrod1937]

For some going too big causes eye strain and motion sickness... but if you're like me, you can never go too big! I used to have a 150 inch screen from 12 feet away, it's pretty good, especially for gaming. Though, I just recently moved to a 140 inch when I got an acoustically transparent screen and it still is pretty immersive. Screen size is only one factor though, how big is your viewing area? Can you go with a higher gain screen (1.5 max, otherwise you may start seeing hot spotting)?
In terms of how big can you go before losing picture quality... well, that's a subjective thing. Brightness is going to be the most apparent item, the larger you go, the less bright any one section of the screen will be, but a higher gain can 'help' with that. Other, less obvious, items might be that the video material might start to show it's weaknesses (compression, mastering...etc) as you go bigger, that's kind of up to you to judge based on your intended viewing material.

 

[pitpat]

if you are projecting on a wall, why not just make it as big as you can and see if you like it?

we can't answer what your preferences are.

and you probably don't need a new thread for each question - this goes with your "How big of a screen" thread.

 

[TomT99]

if you are projecting on a wall, why not just make it as big as you can and see if you like it?

we can't answer what your preferences are.

and you probably don't need a new thread for each question - this goes with your "How big of a screen" thread.

I don't have any blank wall space bigger than what I'm using. The screen will be going in front of my entertainment center as a temporary occasional setup.

I would've included in that thread but figured this question was more relevant to this board.

 

[fredfish]

Keep moving closer until the current screen seems too big. Use the resulting distance to size ratio to calculate screen size from the planned seating distance.

 

[TomT99]

Keep moving closer until the current screen seems too big. Use the resulting distance to size ratio to calculate screen size from the planned seating distance.

So there is a limit I'll reach where I'm at the ideal distance for my taste?

 

[TomT99]

For some going too big causes eye strain and motion sickness... but if you're like me, you can never go too big! I used to have a 150 inch screen from 12 feet away, it's pretty good, especially for gaming. Though, I just recently moved to a 140 inch when I got an acoustically transparent screen and it still is pretty immersive. Screen size is only one factor though, how big is your viewing area? Can you go with a higher gain screen (1.5 max, otherwise you may start seeing hot spotting)?
In terms of how big can you go before losing picture quality... well, that's a subjective thing. Brightness is going to be the most apparent item, the larger you go, the less bright any one section of the screen will be, but a higher gain can 'help' with that. Other, less obvious, items might be that the video material might start to show it's weaknesses (compression, mastering...etc) as you go bigger, that's kind of up to you to judge based on your intended viewing material.

Do the items you refer to - compression and mastering, relate to the resolution or image quality? At what size do these start becoming noticeable?

 

[AV_Integrated]

On topic - This is the W1070 on a 161" 1.3 gain screen with/without lights on in a rather weak environment:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...usd-msrp/1720730-w1070-lights-161-screen.html

Resolution is a near meaningless term without considering compression. Typically mastering will be good with Blu-ray Disc (BD), but older material may have issues because of age and budgetary reasons.

Blu-ray Discs are typically taken from quality film stock or direct from digital versions and properly mastered. But, they are still heavily compressed. The original video is taken down in size using a quality compression algorithm, typically a h.264 version. These run at about 30Mbs and utilize 1920x1080 resolution. They look very good almost always. In comparison, streaming 1080p solutions often run at 3 to 5Mbs. That's about 80% less than what Blu-ray may be running at, so you should expect a great deal more of visible compression artifacts when viewing streaming content.

Over the air (OTA) can run in the 18Gbs range, but they typically use the older MPEG-2 compression algorithm. As well, cable companies love to really compress secondary channels (TNT for example). So, it can be very hit or miss with television.

Then there is the resolution limitation of 1920x1080 itself.

Visible pixel structure can start to appear for people who have good eyesight and sit closer than 1.5x the screen width. So, if you have a 8' wide screen (110" diagonal), and you sit closer than 12 feet away, you are more likely to notice the actual pixel structure. You also may notice screen door effect (LCD, DLP, LCoS in order from worst to best).

As many consumers do like sitting at a distance that is often offers 10" to 12" of diagonal for each foot of viewing distance, the chance of seeing visible pixel structure and artifacts will increase significantly as image size goes up.

If you demand the best possible image, then sit further away. At least 1.5x the screen width.

This won't guarantee that you won't see other issues such as compression artifacts, but it will help to eliminate visible pixel structure, and will mean that any issues you do see are more likely to be associated with compression.

If you still see a bunch of compression artifacts, then think about your source. If you are streaming all your movies, then try hitting up Redbox for a movie rental. See how much of a difference that makes. Make sure to get a calibration disc and run your projector through a basic calibration to ensure sharpness isn't causing issues. Also, things like creative frame interpolation (CFI) can add artifacts. This would come from the projector itself, and is one of the factors of most projectors - how well do they handle motion? This is where reviews come in handy. Be aware that an A/V receiver between the source and the projector also may have video handling in it, and can mess up the image significantly. My Denon receiver sometimes does this. There are often 'PURE' video modes that allow the internal video scalers to be bypassed on an A/V receiver, which can improve overall image quality.

Yeah, there's a lot involved.

 

[TomT99]

On topic - This is the W1070 on a 161" 1.3 gain screen with/without lights on in a rather weak environment:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...usd-msrp/1720730-w1070-lights-161-screen.html

Resolution is a near meaningless term without considering compression. Typically mastering will be good with Blu-ray Disc (BD), but older material may have issues because of age and budgetary reasons.

Blu-ray Discs are typically taken from quality film stock or direct from digital versions and properly mastered. But, they are still heavily compressed. The original video is taken down in size using a quality compression algorithm, typically a h.264 version. These run at about 30Mbs and utilize 1920x1080 resolution. They look very good almost always. In comparison, streaming 1080p solutions often run at 3 to 5Mbs. That's about 80% less than what Blu-ray may be running at, so you should expect a great deal more of visible compression artifacts when viewing streaming content.

Over the air (OTA) can run in the 18Gbs range, but they typically use the older MPEG-2 compression algorithm. As well, cable companies love to really compress secondary channels (TNT for example). So, it can be very hit or miss with television.

Then there is the resolution limitation of 1920x1080 itself.

Visible pixel structure can start to appear for people who have good eyesight and sit closer than 1.5x the screen width. So, if you have a 8' wide screen (110" diagonal), and you sit closer than 12 feet away, you are more likely to notice the actual pixel structure. You also may notice screen door effect (LCD, DLP, LCoS in order from worst to best).

As many consumers do like sitting at a distance that is often offers 10" to 12" of diagonal for each foot of viewing distance, the chance of seeing visible pixel structure and artifacts will increase significantly as image size goes up.

If you demand the best possible image, then sit further away. At least 1.5x the screen width.

This won't guarantee that you won't see other issues such as compression artifacts, but it will help to eliminate visible pixel structure, and will mean that any issues you do see are more likely to be associated with compression.

If you still see a bunch of compression artifacts, then think about your source. If you are streaming all your movies, then try hitting up Redbox for a movie rental. See how much of a difference that makes. Make sure to get a calibration disc and run your projector through a basic calibration to ensure sharpness isn't causing issues. Also, things like creative frame interpolation (CFI) can add artifacts. This would come from the projector itself, and is one of the factors of most projectors - how well do they handle motion? This is where reviews come in handy. Be aware that an A/V receiver between the source and the projector also may have video handling in it, and can mess up the image significantly. My Denon receiver sometimes does this. There are often 'PURE' video modes that allow the internal video scalers to be bypassed on an A/V receiver, which can improve overall image quality.

Yeah, there's a lot involved.

Wow, that's a lot of info, thanks. Basically my situation is this - I'm debating whether to keep my 135" ezcinema self supporting pull-up screen or just shoot on the big white wall behind it. The wall is about 3-4 feet behind where the screen would be if that gives you an idea of how much bigger the image would be. Will I notice a significant difference in image quality between the two?

 

[AV_Integrated]

Is there a reason you can't just test it out?

After using a non-tensioned screen for years, I would never use a non-tensioned screen ever again.

Yes, I would shoot onto a white wall, as it likely will look similar or better overall.

But, if you have a wall you can use full time as a screen, then I would consider a minimal gain screen at an affordable price if the room is good and can support it.

I think if you would like to take the W1070 up to 150" or so, you will be just fine as long as you work to keeping ambient light to a minimum.

 

[TomT99]

Is there a reason you can't just test it out?

After using a non-tensioned screen for years, I would never use a non-tensioned screen ever again.

Yes, I would shoot onto a white wall, as it likely will look similar or better overall.

But, if you have a wall you can use full time as a screen, then I would consider a minimal gain screen at an affordable price if the room is good and can support it.

I think if you would like to take the W1070 up to 150" or so, you will be just fine as long as you work to keeping ambient light to a minimum.

I can't test it out bc I have a giant entertainment center in the way, which is why I bought the screen. Is the 4 foot distance between the wall and screen going to make the wall image more than 150" if the screen is 135"?

Also, what is wrong with non-tensioned screens? Is this tensioned? http://www.projectorscreenstore.co...bric-HDTV-Format-Projector-Screen-39487.html

 

[AV_Integrated]

Screen size will be based upon projector to screen distance.

For your current 135" diagonal, the projector is located between 11'4" and 14'9" lens to screen.

If you add 4' to that distance (exactly) then your lens to screen distance is 15'4" and 18'9".

At the mid point - call it 17', you can produce a screen size between 156" and 204". To get a 150" diagonal, the projector would need to be about 16' from lens to screen.

Not sure what your ability is to move the projector at all.

SCREENS: This is a tab-tensioned screen. If you look at it, you can see that it is being pulled in all directions - tensioned to be flat in all directions.

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/952/325/439/439325952_982.JPG

A non tensioned screen, is like a shower curtain. Just weighing down the bottom, or pulling up on the top won't deal with the ripples you will get in the main surface. (see image attached)

The best screen value and quality comes in the form of a fixed frame screen. They are inexpensive and work very well.

A cheaper 150" tab-tensioned screen is still over $1,000...
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens...2572&sr=8-3&keywords=tab+tensioned+screen+150

I use a 161" tab-tensioned screen in my setup currently.

 

[pitpat]

as was recommended to you 7 months ago - just move the "entertainment center" and use the wall.

I've got the w1070 projecting a 142" picture on a wall and it is awesome.

You are missing out this whole time with your temporary, set up and take down approach.

It was the easiest, most logical answer then and it still is.

 

[TomT99]

Screen size will be based upon projector to screen distance.

For your current 135" diagonal, the projector is located between 11'4" and 14'9" lens to screen.

If you add 4' to that distance (exactly) then your lens to screen distance is 15'4" and 18'9".

At the mid point - call it 17', you can produce a screen size between 156" and 204". To get a 150" diagonal, the projector would need to be about 16' from lens to screen.

Not sure what your ability is to move the projector at all.

SCREENS: This is a tab-tensioned screen. If you look at it, you can see that it is being pulled in all directions - tensioned to be flat in all directions.

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/952/325/439/439325952_982.JPG

A non tensioned screen, is like a shower curtain. Just weighing down the bottom, or pulling up on the top won't deal with the ripples you will get in the main surface. (see image attached)

The best screen value and quality comes in the form of a fixed frame screen. They are inexpensive and work very well.

A cheaper 150" tab-tensioned screen is still over $1,000...
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens...2572&sr=8-3&keywords=tab+tensioned+screen+150

I use a 161" tab-tensioned screen in my setup currently.

Damn, am I definitely going to see ripples? Also, are you saying that the size of the image on my wall would not be big enough to notice a difference in picture quality?

 

[TomT99]

as was recommended to you 7 months ago - just move the "entertainment center" and use the wall.

I've got the w1070 projecting a 142" picture on a wall and it is awesome.

You are missing out this whole time with your temporary, set up and take down approach.

It was the easiest, most logical answer then and it still is.

Not easiest, getting rid of my entertainment center is quite a production, it holds a bunch of equipment that I would keep and so I'd have to get another piece of furniture. Also, I wasn't sure about going too big.

 

[AV_Integrated]

Tom, I'm not sure what your setup is. But, if you live in this space. That is, it's your home and you own it. Taking the time (perhaps quite a while) to relocate your equipment is not a bad thing to do. A complete pain, but well worth it when done.

In over 15 years, I've never seen a non-tensioned screen that didn't get/have waves in the material. I've owned 2 non-tensioned screens, including the Model-B, and they developed waves.

A bit over a year ago I had to move equipment in my family room. I ended up cutting all the equipment into my wall and putting shelving in my wall to support the setup. It took me about two weeks to get everything all setup and all new wiring pulled to the new equipment location.

If you've decided you really like a front projection setup and you own the space, then I would encourage you to really look at how you can improve it for the long term to make projection use just as awesome as it can be. I've attached some pics of the work related to moving my gear and the (near) final result.

 

[pitpat]

Moving this is less of a production than lugging out a screen and setting up your projector every time you use it.

 

[TomT99]

Moving this is less of a production than lugging out a screen and setting up your projector every time you use it.

I kind of like the way the entertainment center fills the space out. Also, I would then have to buy a bigger TV as I don't want to use the projector for watching regular TV and video games. Hence the temporary setup.

 

[TomT99]

Tom, I'm not sure what your setup is. But, if you live in this space. That is, it's your home and you own it. Taking the time (perhaps quite a while) to relocate your equipment is not a bad thing to do. A complete pain, but well worth it when done.

In over 15 years, I've never seen a non-tensioned screen that didn't get/have waves in the material. I've owned 2 non-tensioned screens, including the Model-B, and they developed waves.

A bit over a year ago I had to move equipment in my family room. I ended up cutting all the equipment into my wall and putting shelving in my wall to support the setup. It took me about two weeks to get everything all setup and all new wiring pulled to the new equipment location.

If you've decided you really like a front projection setup and you own the space, then I would encourage you to really look at how you can improve it for the long term to make projection use just as awesome as it can be. I've attached some pics of the work related to moving my gear and the (near) final result.

No unfortunately I rent. When I do own a home rest assured I will go the whole 9 yards, designated light-free room, pj w good blacks, fixed frame screen and all.

 

[AV_Integrated]

Not sure what the layout is of your rental, but in my apartment I ended up putting the equipment in a different room. I cut a 1-gang pass-through box to run cabling from the family room side to the equipment side. When I moved out, I just put a one-gang cover on the wall, and nobody said anything to me at all. Took about 4 hours or so to set everything up.

The apartment complex WAS cool with me mounting the projector to the ceiling though. That kind of surprised me, but I guess it was their normal policy to patch and paint as soon as anyone moved out. Worth checking.