How can you figure out which blu-ray upconverts BEST?

8983 Views 27 Replies 15 Participants Last post by dwb123456, Jan 15, 2008

dwb123456

Discussion Starter · Jan 13, 2008

I've been reading all the threads looking at the standard DVD up-convert ability of blu-ray players. I keep reading that "source quality" is the most important thing, so standard DVD up-convert is still really important for all the non-bluray (or HD) dvds.

Is there any objective information source on how various blu-ray players up-convert? Is there a way to actually measure this or is it purely subjective?

I don't mean this the wrong way. There are lots of helpful posts on AVS, but it seems like this is very subjective. Reading the posts, there is a lot of conflicting info on which are better.

Some people are saying the only decent standard DVD up-convert comes from a separate up-convert player such as an Oppo.

Then I read other posts that say what people may really be seeing is their HDTV's ability to up-convert various sources including standard DVD rather than what the player is doing.

I'd like to get one player that can handle blu-ray and my old dvds.

I'm getting so confused that I'm thinking of just buying the Oppo for my 58" 720P Panasonic and waiting awhile on the blu-ray.

Is there any reason to believe that blu-ray players ability to up-convert "standard" DVDs will improve if I wait?

P.S.

I am not particularly concerned with sound quality, just want a player that delivers good blu-ray picture with an excellent standard DVD up-convert capability.

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

jpmst3

· #2 · Jan 13, 2008

There is not objective measurement. If you ask 100 people using 4 different players you will get 25 for each. They all do pretty well, perhaps some very slightly better than others, but that all depends on the display being viewed on. Trouble is there is almost no two setups that are exactly alike.

dwb123456

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 13, 2008

Thanks jpmst3,

I was afraid it might all be subjective.

Is there any reason to think up-convert would be better if you buy the blu-ray and HDTV from the same manufacturer? So, if you have a sharp, sony, or panasonic monitor is it better to buy the same brand blu-ray as monitor for best results?

It seems reasonable to me that a manufacturer would tweak their player for their particular monitors, but perhaps this is not really an issue.

Steve Schauer

· #4 · Jan 14, 2008

No, not true it all. You might run in to a situation where a particular display is preconfigured more closely to a calibrated setting, but what comes in from the player, in terms of contrast, gamma, brightness, etc. is not going to vary in any meaningful way from brand to brand.

But regardless of brand, you need to calibrate the display settings to get the most out of your player. They rarely are close out of the box. This can be as simple as renting a Disney disc with the THX optimizer or as complex as what an ISF calibrator will do for you.

dildatonr

· #5 · Jan 14, 2008

It's not all subjective.

I don't have links handy - but if you search around you can find the HQV benchmark scores for most HDM players. Of course a lot of the tests don't relate to much real world performance beyond those specific test patters, but it's the best "scientific" indicator of which player is performing better. All things being equal of course.

But of course what works best on SD content might not sell you the player. The Samsung BDP-1200 is (as last I read) the top HQV scoring BR player, but many have reported several compatibility issues that other players don't have.

steven975

· #6 · Jan 14, 2008

also, while the BDP-1200 has the Reon processor, it falls behind in upscaling to the HD-XA2. It's all in the firmware I guess. I believe the Reon has its own section for software updates...I'd guess Samsung has probably never updated it (given how many of the issues with their first players they have NOT fixed!).

jpmst3

· #7 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by dildatonr /forum/post/12803146

It's not all subjective.

But, it really is. It is no different than food or music. What tastes or sounds good to some is not true for others. Just becasue Budweiser beer earns awards for taste, does not mean that I would EVER drink it.

So, yes, it is all subjective because it does not matter what measure you use some people like exagerated colors, gamma, etc. So, you can have the best match to what you think looks great but, if it does not look good for others. This why no one will agree here on what player upscales the best. You will get a different opinion in every other post...forget about the fact that there are variances in each piece of equipment even if two people had the exact same gear. I am sure there are technical measurements of some sort, but that all goes out the window when you leave the lab.

My HD-A3 was much better than my Denon and about equal to my PS3, others think differently. We are not all professional calibrators of equipment, therefore it all comes down to subjective measurements, our eyes.

No, it won't matter what brand of each piece of gear is. The results will vary regardless.

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jpmst3

· #8 · Jan 14, 2008

A typical example, check out posts #12213 and #12214 in the PS3 player thread. One guy says it is excellent, one says grainy.

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nagyg

· #9 · Jan 14, 2008

I have a Samsung BD-P1200 and a PS3 on a JVC-RS1 projector. I have been comparing the PS3 with the Sammy using some of my favorite DVDs - Fosse, Baraka, Moulin Rouge - and I cannot notice a difference. If hard pressed I might give the Sammy the edge, but the PS3 is very good and a keeper. I will return the Sammy because of its BD playback issues.

dildatonr

· #10 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 /forum/post/12803704

But, it really is. It is no different than food or music. What tastes or sounds good to some is not true for others. Just becasue Budweiser beer earns awards for taste, does not mean that I would EVER drink it.

So, yes, it is all subjective because it does not matter what measure you use some people like exagerated colors, gamma, etc. So, you can have the best match to what you think looks great but, if it does not look good for others. This why no one will agree here on what player upscales the best. You will get a different opinion in every other post...forget about the fact that there are variances in each piece of equipment even if two people had the exact same gear. I am sure there are technical measurements of some sort, but that all goes out the window when you leave the lab.

You're comparing the taste of beer to how hardware performs?

That's a whole lot of circular logic. I mean you could use that same logic to say "Well some prefer the softer SD video to the overly detailed HD". and like I said not "ALL" is subjective. There is science, there are actual tests to benchmark hardware. Like I said, some of these tests do not relate to real world performance but some do.

For the sake of this debate we have to assume a person wants "reference quality". Because once you say I "prefer blown colors" - it just becomes a debate of all of us chasing our tails. "well I prefer edge enhancement and audio dropouts" - you could talk in circles for years and it won't help the OP out one damn bit.

What's not subjective? Proper cadence detection (2.2, 2:2:2:4, 2:3:3:2, 3:2:3:2:2,5:5, 6:4,8:7and 3:2), how well does it handle film with video titles, proper de-interlacing, crushing blacks/whites ect.... Is your player giving you jaggies, bad noise reduction ect? Do you want your player to play whats on the disc at the resolution you desire without adding extra information/distortion? If you don't care about this stuff, FINE. But a lot of us have large screens and this stuff can become very distracting depending on the film, player in question. and we rely both on our eye AND scientific tests that benchmark the performance of this hardware.

To say SD DVD performance/upconversion is ALL subjective is not only unscientific, it's misleading. Unless you continue with the line of logic - "well some of us prefer our players not to be accurate and add distortion". Which simply makes my brain hurt.

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JonW747

· #11 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 /forum/post/12804086

A typical example, check out posts #12213 and #12214 in the PS3 player thread. One guy says it is excellent, one says grainy.

Up conversion doesn't create grain, albeit it can get rid of it if some form of noise filtering is applied. Heck, Blu-Ray films often have a lot of grain. The presence of grain is an indication that you're getting what was originally transfered.

I know I can switch settings on my TV and reduce the grain via the TV's processing. I think I'd rather have this happening in my TV than in the player, because it's easier to control in the TV.

FiringSquad.com did a review of upscaling and they determined the ps3 was top notch. I'm not sure there are any other Blu-Ray players in the same class, but if you have a decent scaler in your TV or your receiver you can always used that.

dildatonr

· #12 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 /forum/post/12804086

A typical example, check out posts #12213 and #12214 in the PS3 player thread. One guy says it is excellent, one says grainy.

Anyone who talks about a player being "grainy" is not very educated. Players don't add grain. Some have the ability to apply noise reduction which actually removes precious detail form the picture. But there is no such thing as a grainy player. Movies are grainy. Just because you have uniformed people posting opinion doesn't mean you can come to the conclusion that "it's all subjective".

You don't need a degree or the ability to pass an "HT Quiz" to be able to post here.

Please talk to some of the more veteran AVS posters or anyone of the HT installers, insiders for more accurate information before reaching any further conclusions on the matter.

HoustonGuy

· #13 · Jan 14, 2008

Has Chris Deering of the "Secrets" benchmark DVD players tested the Panny BD-10A which seems to be the most bought non ps3 BD player? If not he ought to.

jpmst3

· #14 · Jan 14, 2008

3

I know and you know that players don't add grain to the picture. But, that is my point. There is so much subjectivity due to media, TV, calibration, player, preferences and now based on the knowledge of the viewer.

Any tests are based on the equipment of the reviewer....

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etrin

· #15 · Jan 14, 2008

well I have noticed a lot of post here and otehr places that just say HD players do better than Blu.

Knowing Sony and remembering seeing dead computers from their tactics I wondered if they just DONT WANT good upconverting.

I was going HD then after last week Blu, but now I just don't know.

jpmst3

· #16 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by etrin /forum/post/12811221

well I have noticed a lot of post here and otehr places that just say HD players do better than Blu.

Knowing Sony and remembering seeing dead computers from their tactics I wondered if they just DONT WANT good upconverting.

I was going HD then after last week Blu, but now I just don't know.

My PS3 looks as good as my HD-A3 on the few I have tried to upscale.

Ruined

· #17 · Jan 14, 2008

I can tell you that my Panasonic BD30 pales in comparison to the Toshiba HD-A35 in upscaling, nevermind XA2.

HoustonGuy

· #18 · Jan 14, 2008

Panny BD10A got excellent upscaling review here...
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-player...-32455487.html

CincyNick

· #19 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by dildatonr /forum/post/12808695

You're comparing the taste of beer to how hardware performs?

That's a whole lot of circular logic. I mean you could use that same logic to say "Well some prefer the softer SD video to the overly detailed HD". and like I said not "ALL" is subjective. There is science, there are actual tests to benchmark hardware. Like I said, some of these tests do not relate to real world performance but some do.

For the sake of this debate we have to assume a person wants "reference quality". Because once you say I "prefer blown colors" - it just becomes a debate of all of us chasing our tails. "well I prefer edge enhancement and audio dropouts" - you could talk in circles for years and it won't help the OP out one damn bit.

What's not subjective? Proper cadence detection (2.2, 2:2:2:4, 2:3:3:2, 3:2:3:2:2,5:5, 6:4,8:7and 3:2), how well does it handle film with video titles, proper de-interlacing, crushing blacks/whites ect.... Is your player giving you jaggies, bad noise reduction ect? Do you want your player to play whats on the disc at the resolution you desire without adding extra information/distortion? If you don't care about this stuff, FINE. But a lot of us have large screens and this stuff can become very distracting depending on the film, player in question. and we rely both on our eye AND scientific tests that benchmark the performance of this hardware.

To say SD DVD performance/upconversion is ALL subjective is not only unscientific, it's misleading. Unless you continue with the line of logic - "well some of us prefer our players not to be accurate and add distortion". Which simply makes my brain hurt.

These are deinterlacing tests...not upconversion tests. Go to hometheaterhifi for more information. Deinterlacing tests show whether or not the player can handle certain material...and these tests are pretty defiinitive. As far as I know there isn't a test for "Upconversion". Some may look better than others, but honestly you will notice little difference between most "upconvert" players out there when compared to a 480p player upscaled on your display. There are some really good "upconvert" players out there (XA2, Sammy 1200, etc.) but the majority aren't any better than letting your display scale. Not every deinterlacer is equal though...and that is what hometheaterhifi (Kris Deering) is testing. Personally, I think upconversion on MOST players is just marketing.

Z06_Pilot

· #20 · Jan 14, 2008

I'm pinning my hopes on the new Denon BD player, currently slated to come out in February, with the Realta video processor.

i am hoping it upconverts as well as my Toshiba XA2 player. i will be a VERY happy guy if that's the case

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