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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ideally the sub should cross over at 80 Hz or lower, but how about 100 Hz, or even 120 Hz? How bad is it? How easy can one locate the subs on these frequencies? And if you can locate them, how well do you locate the subs? With pinpoint accuracy, or just a general direction? Is it enough to have the sub on the same wall as the fronts, or should it be close to the fronts too?


AtW
 

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Well this depends on your location of the sub. Depends wheter its corner load or not, front or rear of the room, nearfield, etc....... Too many variables really to give a definitive answer. Proper placement and coupling to the room could allow for you to have up to 120hz x-over without any bad localization issues. And ive seen subs crossed at 80hz that were horribly localized. So just try it out with many different placement options.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATWindsor /forum/post/18213122


Ideally the sub should cross over at 80 Hz or lower, but how about 100 Hz, or even 120 Hz? How bad is it? How easy can one locate the subs on these frequencies? And if you can locate them, how well do you locate the subs? With pinpoint accuracy, or just a general direction? Is it enough to have the sub on the same wall as the fronts, or should it be close to the fronts too?


AtW

Just set your crossovers to 100, then 120 Hz and see for yourself.
 

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My sub is right behind my couch and I have tried using up to 120Hz. I could not tell where the sub was and the bass still sounded like it was coming from the speakers. I assume some people are more sensitive to localization than others. I'm not one of them. You may or may not be, so you just have to try it.


If your satellites don't play down to 80 Hz, you will be better off crossing your sub higher, even if it is localizable, instead of having a hole in your FR.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac /forum/post/18213578


My sub is right behind my couch and I have tried using up to 120Hz. I could not tell where the sub was and the bass still sounded like it was coming from the speakers. I assume some people are more sensitive to localization than others. I'm not one of them. You may or may not be, so you just have to try it.


If your satellites don't play down to 80 Hz, you will be better off crossing your sub higher, even if it is localizable, instead of having a hole in your FR.

You have to listen to a variety of material to test. For example, you could think it's fine, but you watch a movie and you hear part of male voices coming from under you.
 

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You might get more male voices bleeding into your sub at 100-120hz cross over point with tv/movie viewing......


Sorry, cyberbri.....didn't read your entire post.....



yeah, what you said......
 

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If the sub is up front, between the speakers, it will help with localization issues for crossovers over 80hz, it worked better for me. If you have two subs up front next to the front L + R speakers, it should be even better with any localization issues above 80hz. Try it and see what you get.
 

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Here is a paper by the Audio Engineering Society (AES) from 2005 called Detection of subwoofer depending on crossover frequency and spatial angle between subwoofer and main speaker .


The study found that a crossover of ~120Hz seemed to be the highest you could go before localization with most of their test sounds. They tested 30 crossover frequencies between 55 and 227Hz. It is interesting to note that "the selected crossover frequency range was not wide enough for half of the listeners, as at some cases they did not detect the difference between reference and split signal even at the highest crossover frequency value."


This isn't in the paper, but the time alignment of the sub to the mains can also have a greater impact on localization than even differences in volume between the sub and mains. It is sometimes necessary to reduce the distance setting for the sub from its actual distance in order to properly time align the sub.
 

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I run mine at 100hz with no issues
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATWindsor /forum/post/18213122


Ideally the sub should cross over at 80 Hz or lower, but how about 100 Hz, or even 120 Hz? How bad is it? How easy can one locate the subs on these frequencies? And if you can locate them, how well do you locate the subs? With pinpoint accuracy, or just a general direction? Is it enough to have the sub on the same wall as the fronts, or should it be close to the fronts too?


AtW

what size is your room?

what is your listening distance from the sub?
 

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At the end of the day it all depends on the crossover and the sub-woofer. Not all crossovers have the same out of band response ( even if they have the same crossover frequency and the same slope) not all sub-woofers have the same out of band frequency response.

Two different subs & crossovers that are the same at 100Hz may have way different outputs at 150Hz, 200Hz and even 300Hz.
 

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I have my sub in the left front corner, just outside the front left tower speaker. About 10-11 feet from LP. However, there is no direct line of sight with LP because the sub is behind a side sofa.


I have recently been testing crossing the mains at 80, 120, 150 and 200Hz. I played mainly music. Above 120Hz there was a slight shift to left of the upper mid bass. But perhaps because of front location or the side sofa the shift was barely noticeable. In fact, I thought the epik sentinel gave quite a show up to 200Hz crossover (stark difference to my early impressions). If I wanted to keep it at 200Hz though, I would prefer to place it in-between the two mains.
 

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Does the size of a room has something to do with a sub's localization? If so, how would it compare being in a small vs medium vs large room? The distance of a sub from the seating position. Let's say the sub is in the front of the room, how would it effect the localization of a sub if you seat say 8ft vs 12ft away?


Also, if after doing the sub's calibration with the receiver, say the sub's distance is 10ft away and the receiver sets the sub at that distance, why change it to a different distance? Just trying to learn too.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri /forum/post/18215404


You have to listen to a variety of material to test. For example, you could think it's fine, but you watch a movie and you hear part of male voices coming from under you.

I would never want to hear a male voice coming from under me. Not that there is anything wrong with it of course, just not something I'd want.

 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18227702


what size is your room?

what is your listening distance from the sub?

The room is approx 16 feet by 13 feet, i would guess the distance forom the planned sub-placement is 10-13 feet.


I tried to do a "blind-test" myself, its difficult to setup, as lightning, and other soundclues in the room can tip you of to which way you are facing, but in my very primitive test i was able to locate the sub pretty good at 80 Hz, at 100 and 120 Hz i was consistent in where i located the sub, but consistently wrong, i always chose the left wall (sub was a front wall). Not sure what to make of that, perhaps something was vibrating close to the sub at 80 Hz? (test where done with sinus-tones)


AtW
 
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