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Discussion Starter #1
Lets see...a crt projector is quite different from a CRT Display from what I understand, and therefor, may be more flexible and fit my needs exactly. I'll go head and just number my questions, as they're pretty basic and strait forward: (all of these question assume the projector is properly setup and calibrated, or w/e needs to be done to get them working as best they can)


1: Can CRT Projectors be set to scan at difference rates and resolutions?


2: Can they scan at interlaced or progressive?


3: If I were to hook up a PC to one, and set it to output 1080p, assuming the projector could scan and display at that resolution, would text be perfectly legible, clear, and standing still? (no dancing image)


4: Are there any that except HDMI or DVI inputs?


5: DLP/LCD/etc projectors use white light bulbs to project, what is the light source of a CRT projector? Is it the actual tube itself?


6: How are the three tubes different from a standard CRT displays single tube?


7: What parts are replaceable, and what is the average life span of each? More importantly, how much do these replacement parts cost and even more important than that, how long will any given replacement part be available since CRT projectors are (AFAIK) being discontinued.


8: How much can I expect to spend on one that will be able to do the following (if any can do all this)
  1. Display full 1080p or higher for watching HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Movies/HD Gaming
  2. Display 480p to allow for crystal clear Wii gaming, and for watching standard TV
  3. Hook up to my PC to allow watching of Movie files, and every thing be legible so that I can browse folders to get to any video file I might want to play.


9: If I use it all the time as if it were a regular TV (as I intend to) how would it stand up to this?


That's about all the questions I have that I can think of. Any other relevant or important information is welcome, and much appreciated



thanks all.
 

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1: yes, all non baseband models can do that


2: they can do both


3: yes (perfectly legible), yes (clear), yes (standing still)


4: yes, there are aftermarket DVI or HDMI inputs for many models (Sony, Barco, NEC, Electrohome/VDC/Christie), or you could use an external converter like the HDFury or similar


5: tubes are the sole light source


6: tubes have no shadow masks and are way brighter than direct-view tubes.


7: all parts are replaceable, average life span should be 10,000+ hours for well set up tubes, and 30-60,000 hours for electronics. Cost of parts varies from model to model. Older models have cheaper parts available (used+tested, sometimes with warranty). Late model PJs (Sony G70/G90, Barco Cine9, Barco Reality 909) have worse parts availability for now, and may require purchase of some parts from the manufacturer at list price.

CRT technicians like Curt Palme will have most parts for most models in stock at all times


Alternatively you can buy a working PJ with worn tubes as backup/parts donor.


8: from a reseller: $2.5k and up (with warranty in most cases), or if you take the risk and buy through ebay or craiglist you could get them much cheaper (in unknown and untested condition).


9: CRT PJs are designed to run 24/7, but tube wear would eventually become a problem. Also you will have to run them in a light controlled environment.


For much more CRT info read this primer: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer.shtm

Curt also has info on most HDMI options on his website or in the for sale section and forum.


Kai
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kschmit2 /forum/post/14334389


8: from a reseller: $2.5k and up (with warranty in most cases), or if you take the risk and buy through ebay or craiglist you could get them much cheaper (in unknown and untested condition).

9: CRT PJs are designed to run 24/7, but tube wear would eventually become a problem. Also you will have to run them in a light controlled environment.

Kai

I would add a little to this and say tube condition is everything. Don't get caught in the trap of "i'll just buy a cheap machine now with burnt tubes and replace them later". there's currently about 6 guys wiht G70's who don't want to spend the $2K for new sony tubes and are looking for "good'used" ones. Good used tubes are not common and command a high price when they come up, usually at least a grand for a complete set with no wear.

somethign to keep in mind when shopping around.
 

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One note on watching 480p: 480p looks like crap on a big screen. If you project to a big screen like most people here (say, 8' diagonal 16:9), that screen is 4' = 48" high. Your scan lines are 48" / 480 = 1/10" apart! Most people get some kind of solution (scaler or video processor) to scale signals like that up to 720p or 1080i/p.
 

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Discussion Starter #5

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz /forum/post/14336664


One note on watching 480p: 480p looks like crap on a big screen. If you project to a big screen like most people here (say, 8' diagonal 16:9), that screen is 4' = 48" high. Your scan lines are 48" / 480 = 1/10" apart! Most people get some kind of solution (scaler or video processor) to scale signals like that up to 720p or 1080i/p.


umm...I don't know about that; I understand what you're concern is, but I'll be far enough back that it won't look like crap. Now, upscaling is what will make it look like crap. In fact, that's the problem I have right now. a 480p source going into a fixed resolution 1080p display...not pretty at all. That 1/10" gap will be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen after playing my Wii on a 1080p display. Worse case scenario, I'd just use another screen that's closer to the projector to make the gaps smaller. I'd rather do that then have to endure 480p upscaled again.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the replies all, I was originally thinking about a newer model, but after hearing about the tube replacements costing 1,000 dollars, I don't know :\\ but at any rate, all my questions were answered, and I'll be reading the primer when I get a chance for even more info. If I decided to get one, and it comes down to certain models I'll post a new thread for that later



Thanks again.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 /forum/post/14337677


umm...I don't know about that; I understand what you're concern is, but I'll be far enough back that it won't look like crap. Now, upscaling is what will make it look like crap. In fact, that's the problem I have right now. a 480p source going into a fixed resolution 1080p display...not pretty at all. That 1/10" gap will be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen after playing my Wii on a 1080p display. Worse case scenario, I'd just use another screen that's closer to the projector to make the gaps smaller. I'd rather do that then have to endure 480p upscaled again.


The problem is not the upscaling, it's the QUALITY of the upscaling being performed by your 1080p TV.


If you used a decent video processor it would look A LOT better.


We all used to scale our DVDs up to somewhere between 720p and 1440p for playback on our CRTs. Back in ye olde dayes before HD came around.


And not many CRTs will display a "perfectly clear" image at 1080p. They are not as sharp as digitals. An 8" LC or higher CRT will look better for film sources than most 1080p digitals, but pixel by pixel sharpness is where digitals will win (assuming panel registration is fine).


I run 1080i 96hz into my 8"LC anyway. 1080p at 60hz judders, and 1080p 48hz flickers. 1080i 96hz does neither, but has some occasional field line visibility. You chooses your compromises.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 /forum/post/14337677


umm...I don't know about that; I understand what you're concern is, but I'll be far enough back that it won't look like crap. Now, upscaling is what will make it look like crap. In fact, that's the problem I have right now. a 480p source going into a fixed resolution 1080p display...not pretty at all. That 1/10" gap will be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen after playing my Wii on a 1080p display. Worse case scenario, I'd just use another screen that's closer to the projector to make the gaps smaller. I'd rather do that then have to endure 480p upscaled again.

Fix rez dispaly look like crap for upscaling, CRT's do much much better as they are not fixed resolution. Cost of tubes is not bad cosidering these machine will last far longer than a throw away digital. when a digitla breaks out of the warrenty period your screwed. just throw it away. CRT FP are modular, a board goes bad get another one, there are parts everywhere. especially for Electrohomes and Barcos. And VDC still makes the Marquee Projector so part will araound for a long time and new the Marquee is close to 30,000 !! so find a nice good shape Marquee 8500 for about 1000 and you have a great machine with plenty of parts and guys on here to help with any problems. Same goes for barcos.


Bulbs lose 20% output after 100 hours for digital sets after 500 hours they should be replaced. and at 250 to 500 a bulb it adds up compared to an 8000-10000 CRT tube that has been set up well. A tube takes much longer to loose its output at all,I say after 3000 hours is when i might be noticable. And even after that there are controls to increase the output to make up for ware if you want to get a bit more life out of it.


Screen shots from a 12 year old CRT Electorhome Marquee 8500 on a 12 foot screen froma blu ray player to Lumagen VP outputing [email protected]








My Favorite:





Now go find a 12 year old digital doing this.



Athanasios
 

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Discussion Starter #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 /forum/post/14338101


Fix rez dispaly look like crap for upscaling, CRT's do much much better as they are not fixed resolution.


the reason fixed resolution displays look like crap for up-scaling is not because they're fixed resolution displays, it's because OF their fixed resolution. In other words, using the same 480p source and the same up-scaling device on both a 1080p LCD display and a CRT projector scanning at 1080p, the image should look the same more or less.


another way to put it is that if I hooked up a 480p source to an EDTV fixed resolution display, it would look crystal clear because the screen is exactly 480 vertical lines scanning progressive. So it's not because it's fixed at all, it's just because that the fixed resolution is much higher than that of the source.



(btw, just to let you know I haven't read the rest of your thread yet, I was in a hurry to reply to that to let you know that I understand why they look bad)


just read the rest of your thread, and I'm certainly impressed. The images look amazing, and it's VERY reassuring to know that your projector is a 12 year old projector, and that replacement parts are always available! One thing that throws me completely though...the price of brand new CRT FPs seam to be upwards of 50,000 dollars, yet from what I've been reading, you can get used ones for under 5,000. How is this possible?
 

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Discussion Starter #10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W /forum/post/14338091


The problem is not the upscaling, it's the QUALITY of the upscaling being performed by your 1080p TV.


If you used a decent video processor it would look A LOT better.


We all used to scale our DVDs up to somewhere between 720p and 1440p for playback on our CRTs. Back in ye olde dayes before HD came around.


And not many CRTs will display a "perfectly clear" image at 1080p. They are not as sharp as digitals. An 8" LC or higher CRT will look better for film sources than most 1080p digitals, but pixel by pixel sharpness is where digitals will win (assuming panel registration is fine).


I run 1080i 96hz into my 8"LC anyway. 1080p at 60hz judders, and 1080p 48hz flickers. 1080i 96hz does neither, but has some occasional field line visibility. You chooses your compromises.


well that is true, but still, no matter how nice the upscaler is, the fact still remains that there isn't enough information to actually fill out 1080 lines in a 480p source without making up information, so it'll never look as nice as it would displayed on a same resolution display device. Still, if it comes down to it, it's nice to know that there are devices out there that do better jobs at up scaling to make it more tolerable.
 

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That works great if the "same resolution EDTV device" is maybe a 30-40" diagonal. Scale it up to 100" diagonal and the ED resolution will look like crap. The pixels are just too big. Trust me on this, we've seen what it looks like.


You're right there isn't enough resolution in an SD DVD to scale up to 1080p so it looks just like HD. But it is entirely possible to scale an SD DVD so it looks very good at 720p or 1080i/p. Again, trust me on this. That's the only thing we all watched until HD came out. HD is much better, but 720p/1080i/p SD with a good scaler will look MUCH better than 480p -- unless you use a really small screen.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 /forum/post/14338518


well that is true, but still, no matter how nice the upscaler is, the fact still remains that there isn't enough information to actually fill out 1080 lines in a 480p source without making up information, so it'll never look as nice as it would displayed on a same resolution display device.

scalers don't "make up" information, they simply copy existing lines. Like Mark tried to explain to yuo, the CRT crowd has been up-scaling to 960P for many, many years now, even back when DLP's could do 720 max.

upscaling never looked bad and it actually looked pretty good since 960 is simply 480P copied and doubled. Of course it's not true HD but it was still a reference image back then. If 480 looks bad on a fixed Pixle device it could be any number of reasons but it's not because up-scaling is an inherently flawed approach.

At any rate it's not worth debating, once you get a CRT you can try any resolution you can dream of and decide for yuorself which looks best. 480P, 720P, 1080i,960P, etc. They all have their pluses and minuses.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundfx4 /forum/post/14337677


umm...I don't know about that; I understand what you're concern is, but I'll be far enough back that it won't look like crap. Now, upscaling is what will make it look like crap. In fact, that's the problem I have right now. a 480p source going into a fixed resolution 1080p display...not pretty at all. That 1/10" gap will be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen after playing my Wii on a 1080p display. Worse case scenario, I'd just use another screen that's closer to the projector to make the gaps smaller. I'd rather do that then have to endure 480p upscaled again.

The projector needs to be setup for an exact screen distance. Moving to a different screen distance you'll need to mechanically converge, redo center and corner focus (six adjustmnents), set Scheimpflug (another six adjustments), and redo electronic convergence. 8 hours later your image will be perfect and you'll have lost interest in whatever it was you were going to watch at the new screen ditance.


There's nothing stopping you from upscaling 480p to 960p and displaying that. Horizontal resolution can be whatever the original is (640 or 720, which might be a bit blocky) or some nice multiple thereof to (1360 or 1440). Regardless, artifact free scaling is possible even when you don't have the best algorithms.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Soundfx4" /forum/post/0


just read the rest of your thread, and I'm certainly impressed. The images look amazing, and it's VERY reassuring to know that your projector is a 12 year old projector, and that replacement parts are always available! One thing that throws me completely though...the price of brand new CRT FPs seam to be upwards of 50,000 dollars, yet from what I've been reading, you can get used ones for under 5,000. How is this possible?

I got an Marquee 8000 for 450 bucks on E-bay and it has mint tubes no wear(I got Lucky) But make a long story short i got hooked onto CRT and Now I have 4 Moarquee's one is not working but i'll on it. 2 8000's and 8500 and 9500LC. You should also join Curt palme forum. More guys into CRT over there.


And thanks for the Compliments I soon plan to Blen Two Crt's onto a 14 foot scope screen.


Athanasios
 

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Forum Memeber Clarence is in Norther VA maybe he will let you see his G90 !!!

Athanasios
 

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My XG was $500
......


...plus shipping and customs duties




But these days I think CRTs are only for enthusiasts. For CRT virgins I'd recommend a Digital. They are good enough now, some are very, very good.
 

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Discussion Starter #17

Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm /forum/post/14338644


scalers don't "make up" information


don't take that literally...I didn't mean they actually make up information, I thought that was pretty obvious..



hehe, something funny about this though; after I read what I posted, I thought to myself this exactly:


"hmm...should I reword that? Naw, nobody's going to actually think I mean it makes up information from nowhere"

 

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Discussion Starter #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz /forum/post/14338625


That works great if the "same resolution EDTV device" is maybe a 30-40" diagonal. Scale it up to 100" diagonal and the ED resolution will look like crap. The pixels are just too big. Trust me on this, we've seen what it looks like.



well, while I'm still unsure about that (and like you said, I won't be able to make my own opinion until I actually observe it with my own eyes) I wasn't using an EDTV in that context at all. I wasn't saying, "well if it looks good on an EDTV, why wouldn't it look good on a CRT FP?" I was just explaining that I fully understand why a 480p source looks bad on high resolution displays.
 

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Discussion Starter #19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt /forum/post/14339031


The projector needs to be setup for an exact screen distance. Moving to a different screen distance you'll need to mechanically converge, redo center and corner focus (six adjustmnents), set Scheimpflug (another six adjustments), and redo electronic convergence. 8 hours later your image will be perfect and you'll have lost interest in whatever it was you were going to watch at the new screen ditance.


There's nothing stopping you from upscaling 480p to 960p and displaying that. Horizontal resolution can be whatever the original is (640 or 720, which might be a bit blocky) or some nice multiple thereof to (1360 or 1440). Regardless, artifact free scaling is possible even when you don't have the best algorithms.

ahhh!!
somewhere inside I was thinking to myself that may be the case...very upsetting to hear that it's worse than what I was thinking though



at any rate, you all seam to insist that it looks great, so at the very least, it's good to know that if the 1/10" gap causes me to want to shoot myself, that I have more options


Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 /forum/post/14340163


Forum Memeber Clarence is in Norther VA maybe he will let you see his G90 !!!

Athanasios

I don't know that I'd make a trip just for that, but I'd definitely love to see a G90 in action
I do have family in that area though, perhaps I will intrude upon him if I'm up there



oh, and dont' the G90s cost like 50 grand? o_O I was reading a calibration tutorial somewhere (may of been here, may of been curtpalme; already a member there btw
) but at any rate, I remember it mentioning one new was several thousand dollars, it was a ridiculous amount of cash.
 

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there a few G90's on ebay right now cheaper by a lot you must realize CRT Fp are not made anymore for the consumer market unless you want to pay 35 G's for a Marquee or an Ampro from VDC. G90's are as are other CRT FP, are comming down in price as we speak, a year ago it cost close to 10G's for a G90 now they go for half of that or less. One thing thogh is the G90 has some proprietory chips they Sony no longer makes and they suggest swaping parts from boards on part projectors to use. This is why Barcos and Electrohome(Vidikron,Christie,Madigral all the same PJ) are better choices for longetivity. There a few Marquees for sale on here and on Videogone that would be a great starter set for you to have. easy to set up and easy to repair by simple swaping of boards. If you can afford 2 get two so you always have a set of boards ready and possibly a nice set of replacement tubes for the long haul.


Trust every one here 480i/p on a big screen just is not acceptable scaling to at least 720p in needed, i do 960p which is double the 480i of SD DVD and run it at 72Hz 3 times the frame rate of films 24fps. This makes for nice smooth pans across the screen and no motion artifacts associated with 3:2 pull down.

A few Scrren shots of SD DVD on a 12 foot screen @ 960p72Hz Marquee 8500 (cost of PJ 450 bucks !)










Athanasios
 
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