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Discussion Starter #1
got this notice from PE:

Celestion T5667A 18-190X 18" Cast Frame 600 Watt Professional Subwoofer 4 Ohm

close out $79.00

Product Specifications
Nominal Diameter18"Power Handling (RMS)600 Watts
Power Handling (max)1,200 WattsImpedance4 ohms
Frequency Response40 to 3,000 HzSensitivity99.72 dB 2.83V/1m
Voice Coil Diameter3"Magnet Weight190 oz.
Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (Fs)47.7 HzDC Resistance (Re)3.19 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)3.06 mHMechanical Q (Qms)9.63
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.39Total Q (Qts)0.37
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)3.0 ft.³Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)0.056 mm/N
BL Product (BL)22.16 TmDiaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)198.3g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)6 mmSurface Area of Cone (Sd)104.63 cm²

how does it model for multiples / NF / MBM / horns, etc.

curious
 

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Ist it fair to call it a subwoofer with an Fs of 47hz and relatively little excursion? As a woofer, it seems a better deal.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Excursion - yeah I saw that but . .

Many have no issues with the PA460, also 6mm . .
and the 460 may list a deeper FR: Frequency Response 26 to 2,000 Hz

but this unit list higher power and slightly greater sensitivity

... it depends . .

any modeler willing to make a quick evaluation?
 

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not doing a horn model but they do have similar BL's although their motor strengths are diff (BLsquared/RE)

PA460 - 88
T5667A - 153
(hope i did that right)

heres a quick WinISD
6cu/f
30hz tune
red - PA460
grey - Celestian
200 watts is where the PA460 hits excursion here the celestian can take a bit more
 

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Up until 34hz the PA460 wins hands down, the T5667A gives you a bit more reach.

Now with 350watts for the T5667A and 250watts for the PA460 (excursion limits) it looks like the PA still wins up till 37 with the other giving considerable boost down to 23hz.
 

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Interesting.

The danger with close-out woofers though, is if you ever cook one or accidentally put a screw through the cone, you'll be SOL...

Where as the PA-460 has been around for 10+ years...
The PA-460 will still rise tomorrow! :p
 

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Excursion - yeah I saw that but . .

Many have no issues with the PA460, also 6mm . .
and the 460 may list a deeper FR: Frequency Response 26 to 2,000 Hz

but this unit list higher power and slightly greater sensitivity

... it depends . .

any modeler willing to make a quick evaluation?
I have always been perplexed at folks using the pa460 as a true subwoofer - seems like the wrong tool for the job. They also have likely not heard properly powered FTW-21's, HST18's , or other uber subs😉
 

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I have always been perplexed at folks using the pa460 as a true subwoofer - seems like the wrong tool for the job. They also have likely not heard properly powered FTW-21's, HST18's , or other uber subs


You have obviously not heard the VBSS which is a fraction of the cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I have always been perplexed at folks using the pa460 as a true subwoofer - seems like the wrong tool for the job. They also have likely not heard properly powered FTW-21's, HST18's , or other uber subs😉
FTW-21 - $850
HST18 - $800
PA460 - $90

Eight PA460s will outperform one of the others at the same cost if you have the space for them.
 

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I have always been perplexed at folks using the pa460 as a true subwoofer - seems like the wrong tool for the job. They also have likely not heard properly powered FTW-21's, HST18's , or other uber subs😉
The only problem I have with that... is that I can't hear a single thing you just said! :p

Not bad for $85 per woofer shipped (with either bulk discounts and/or coupons.) ;)
Especially considering that green is the "optimal ported boxes" and the blue is the "unoptimal" sealed boxes I built. ;)








and that chart is ONLY the MBM's i.e. the 2 sealed boxes hidden behind my fronts and other ULF subs... (i.e. it goes even louder...) hehe! :p


First worlder problems are awesome... :D
 

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None of this is proof that the pa460 is a subwoofer, except maybe in double digit driver applications - at what cost in floor space or room volume? A screwdriver can be used as a hammer - in limited aaplications.
 

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None of this is proof that the pa460 is a subwoofer, except maybe in double digit driver applications - at what cost in floor space or room volume? A screwdriver can be used as a hammer - in limited aaplications.
Without a doubt if your goal is 1-30hz, then an SI-24 is one of the better options around, on data-bass 7.6sqft per box [email protected] and 136db of mid-bass for ~$1276 without amplification.

The HST-18 on data-bass was like 3.9sqft and that gives [email protected] and 128db of mid-bass. ~$800 without amplification.

With 2 HST-18's you'll be at 7.6sqft and 103db and 134db for $1600.

In my case:
Theater is 414sqft, MBM's were 5.4sqft of floor space for [email protected] and 148db of mid-bass. ~$1360 without amplification.

More sqft/cuft if you start porting or horning any of these drivers...

Since when is -3db @ 19hz for $90 not a subwoofer? Yeah it's not a $2500 SHS-24 or $600 B&C 21 in performance, but it does just fine for what it is... ;)

Because of the insane efficiency of pro drivers, my MBM's hit 115db @ 2watts (of 8000w). LOL!
These Celestion's appear to be even more efficient... thus likely 115db @ 1w (of 9600w). LOL!!! You better bring at least 4 HST-18 to this party! :D
 

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You are not wrong, but I will take my dual-opposed sonosub FTW-21 air pump (that digs to high single digits) that takes up less than 2 square feet of floor space over multiple pa460's. I have the midbass covered with the proper tools - quality pro woofers. All the bass and midbass in less space than multiple huge pa460 boxes. Did it cost more, yes. Is it worth it to me, yes.

BTW, many of us got the 21's before the huge price increase - so well below $850;)
 

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takes up less than 2 square feet of floor space
I think you are doing the math wrong:
21" diameter = 2.41sqft
24x24 = 2ft^2 = 4sqft
Don't confuse feet-squared with square-feet. ;)

Yes a circle is minimum floor space, but unless you are putting 4 candles around it, then you might as well consider it a square. You're not really saving much "usable" floor space at all. ;)

The FTW-21 is somewhere between the SI-24 and HST-18 in performance.
I'd figure roughly 95db and 125db. Or 101db and 131db for dual. (Less at 10hz if ported... [unless ported @ 10hz, which will then lower that 131db mid-bass score.])
It ain't gonna be no 109db and 148db... ;)

B&C 18's are even louder than the PA-460's across the board, and higher quality, but also like 6x more money.

Here is what 16 B&C 18DS115's can do @ 27200watts for $8432...
and just for giggles 16 HS-24's in red @ 32000watts for $20416 (hopefully some discounts. :p)

135db @ 15hz and 151db in the mid-bass for ported.
I wouldn't recommend using the B&C sealed as it barely beats out the PA-460 in that config.

But as you can see, at 150db you are basically banging up against the ceiling. It really ain't reasonable to "go louder" at this point. So the $1400 worth of PA-460's for 109db and 148db ain't that bad... even when compared to $20k worth of 24's(which is in an impossibly huge box too BTW... :D)

That's all she's got captain, not a lightspeed more... :p
 

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takes up less than 2 square feet of floor space
I think you are doing the math wrong:
21" diameter = 2.41sqft
24x24 = 2ft^2 = 4sqft
Don't confuse feet-squared with square-feet. /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yes a circle is minimum floor space, but unless you are putting 4 candles around it, then you might as well consider it a square. You're not really saving much "usable" floor space at all. /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

The FTW-21 is somewhere between the SI-24 and HST-18 in performance.
I'd figure roughly 95db and 125db. Or 101db and 131db for dual. (Less at 10hz if ported... [unless ported @ 10hz, which will then lower that 131db mid-bass score.])
It ain't gonna be no 109db and 148db... /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

B&C 18's are even louder than the PA-460's across the board, and higher quality, but also like 6x more money.

Here is what 16 B&C 18DS115's can do @ 27200watts for $8432...
and just for giggles 16 HS-24's in red @ 32000watts for $20416 (hopefully some discounts. /forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

135db @ 15hz and 151db in the mid-bass for ported.
I wouldn't recommend using the B&C sealed as it barely beats out the PA-460 in that config.

But as you can see, at 150db you are basically banging up against the ceiling. It really ain't reasonable to "go louder" at this point. So the $1400 worth of PA-460's for 109db and 148db ain't that bad... even when compared to $20k worth of 24's(which is in an impossibly huge box too BTW... /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

That's all she's got captain, not a lightspeed more... /forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif

BTH i love the way you take things to the extreme. And it is vey cool to see what can be done with the inexpensive drivers. If you have the space you dont need to spend all the money in the world.
 

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I find my VBSS's do pretty well in about 1500 cft in the 15-20 hz range. For what it is, especially considering the cost, more subwoofer than most people (not us :) need.
 
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