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How low (Hz) do I "need" to go?

4372 Views 35 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  kgveteran, 
A
Hi, all. New to the forums, this is my first post. Building my first HT system, and getting to the subwoofer selection.


My question is more theoretical, rather than individual sub selection.


My listening room is (will be, not completed) about 18' x 22' x 8' (approx. 3,000 cubic ft). TV will be along the long wall, and expected seating position(s) will be about 14ft or so back from that.


The same wall the TV is on has a passthrough to another room (currently no door, but may be). There is an opening to the stairwell leading upstairs.


Room is not going to be dedicated to HT. It will be a basement family/living/TV room. Usage is probably going to be about 60% general TV/sports viewing, 30% movies and 10% other.


I have bought a Yamaha RX-A800 receiver and a Boston Acoustics "Classic" speaker set - eventually will add 2 more speakers to get to 7. (Don't necessarily expect that either the AVR or speakers are there until they die...)


So, the question is this - many forums extole the virtues/advantages of purchasing Internet Direct subs - generally because they offer 20Hz (or lower) extension and tend to be cheaper than at brick and mortar stores.


I also understand that many movies now have sub-20 details in them.


But, I live in Atlantic Canada and getting many of these ID subs is actually more costly because of the duties and the fact the companies charge you crazy shipping outside the 48. Crossing the border for pickup is possible, and saves cash, but also means about 4hrs worth of driving and gas money. So, on the whole, I would say that this decision in Canada is not as easily the no-brainer that it is if you live in the US.


I can go to the local box store and get some "good" subs (with 25 or 28Hz ratings, maybe even 23 if I go for a 15") for the same or cheaper, or even get Paradigm local for as much as what some ID subs would eventually cost me.


So, for someone who a) currently doesn't have any subwoofer, b) will generally be using the system for TV viewing and c) has a toddler, so earthshaking bass is not the goal, is the extra performance of an ID sub (SVS, eD, Rythmik, HSU, Outlaw) going to be worth the extra cash (over some lesser subs) or hassles (ie. driving over the border to save the shipping)??



Please note, I have done a lot of research and read many threads here and elsewhere on comparisons between various particular subs. If I go ID, I have it narrowed down to a short list. I'm not looking for suggestions on particular subs (at least not now....)


The real question is whether in my room with my listening habits, will I ever get the true "benefits" of having a sub with under-20Hz performance?



I am sure this will generate some "spirited" discussion - thanks in advance.
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C
I believe that if you really like Home Theater and action movies, you want to get something that gives you pretty decent 20HZ performance.


There was a thread a Loooooooonnng time ago, maybe 2-3 years, where people were discussing the fact that there is definitely sub-20HZ content in movies, but there really isn't THAT much, so you could get by with something that gets down to 19-20Hz pretty well as long as you understood that you were missing something, but still getting like 95% of what was there.


Subs that only go to 23-25 are missing more. Subs that go to 16 are missing less.


So there's stuff there, but back then it felt like 20-ish was the threshhold for getting "most" of the low stuff. Maybe someone who has been doing waterfall frequency charts of recent movies can speak to whether or not this is still the case?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981
FWIW, some of the ID companies do have Canadian distributors. I know SVS has Sonic Boom Audio. Not sure about the others.


Yes, I know about Sonic Boom for SVS in Canada. But all their product comes from the US, so the duties are already built into the CAD price AND they charge you for shipping. It actually becomes the most expensive of my comparable ID options if you consider that with HSU, Outlaw or eD, I can save by getting a drop-shipment and crossing the border.



My local box store is having a pretty good sale on some Velodyne DLS subs which I've looked hard at. It's hard not to just pull the trigger at those prices.


But, if I will truly see a difference with something I get ID, I don't mind waiting, watching and doing what it takes. I just really didn't know if I would see/hear/feel the difference or not. But just based on these first couple of responses, it sounds like I clearly would - and as you point out, Steve, it most likely futureproofs me for when little man is a little older.
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I bought an eD A2-300, I got it for $395 from eD, and they added an extra $50 or so for shipping to Canada (Calgary). Then I paid about $25 for taxes etc. so the whole thing cost me about $475. They were good to deal with, if you are interested in eD, give them a call.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5seonds /forum/post/20841781


I bought an eD A2-300, I got it for $395 from eD, and they added an extra $50 or so for shipping to Canada (Calgary). Then I paid about $25 for taxes etc. so the whole thing cost me about $475. They were good to deal with, if you are interested in eD, give them a call.
Click to expand...


I have made email contact with eD, and they have been good - the person I've "talked" to said he could deal a bit on the website price for a couple of the models which are backordered right now. But, they quoted me a shipping fee of $170US for the a5s-300. Plus, I live in an HST province (13%) which really adds up on top of the duties.


If I decide to go ID, eD is near the top of my list - just can't quite decide among the A2, A3 or A5 for my space.



As for the Velodyne 15" - I can get it for a decent price, but I've read some reviews saying it is boomy, plus it is HUGE - definite low points on the WAF scale.


But, if I need a 15" to adequately fill my space, it might be my only option. Any 15" offerings from ID's are generally well above $1,000 all in once they would get to me, which is more than I'm really looking to spend right now.



And I thought choosing the speakers was the hardest part of this system!
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Thanks.


I am reading through the thread on the Velodyne CHT 15" and I interpret some of the comments to suggest that based on room gain, in movie mode, it could very well give performance to 20 or lower - am I misinterpreting?


I'll be honest, I have absolutely no idea how to read/understand/interpret the various graphs they show.
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S

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2011 /forum/post/20841912


Thanks.


I am reading through the thread on the Velodyne CHT 15" and I interpret some of the comments to suggest that based on room gain, in movie mode, it could very well give performance to 20 or lower - am I misinterpreting?


I'll be honest, I have absolutely no idea how to read/understand/interpret the various graphs they show.
Click to expand...

You should read this review of the DLS-R 15:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...fers?page=0,10


The entire review of the DLS-R 15 is on pages 10 and 11. You might also want to read the entire article which includes test results for 4 other subs.
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drewTT
Until you hit the brown note...
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Thanks for the link, spyboy. Seems they liked the HSU 3.3 a bit better - too bad its replacement, the VTF3 MK4 is a little bit above the $ range I'm trying to stay in.



I am still stewing a little over whether I should bit on the Velodyne 15, but here is another question - I can get 2 of the DLS-3750 (10") for the same price as the 15". But would this do me any good? From what I understand, 2 subs helps even out the overall room response, but it doesn't help you hit lower. The 10" is only rated to 28 Hz, so probably I am really fooling myself that I'm gaining anything by having 2 subs?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2011 /forum/post/20841252


c) has a toddler, so earthshaking bass is not the goal
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Below 20Hz is getting out of the audible range and into the "you can only feel it" range.


Since earthshaking is not a goal you don't "need" less than 20Hz performance.


And since you have nothing, anything is waay better.


If you can get a good deal on a Paradigm DSP3200 or 3400 that could be a good bet for where you are.
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Nathan Funk has his shop in Canada and a full line of subs - http://funkywaves.net/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlj5242 /forum/post/20842772


Nathan Funk has his shop in Canada and a full line of subs - http://funkywaves.net/
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Nathan does great stuff, but unfortunately from the exact opposite side of the country from the OP, so shipping will be significant on a big sub (unless you can find someone moving and have it thrown on the truck cheap - it is students crossing the country time).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 /forum/post/20842768


If you can get a good deal on a Paradigm DSP3200 or 3400 that could be a good bet for where you are.
Click to expand...


I can get a Paradigm DSP-3200 or an Ultracube 10 (650W RMS!!!) for roughly the same price (after tax) as I can get the SVS. (which would be roughly $100 more than the 15" Velo)


I think I'm safe in saying all 3 would easily smoke the Velodyne - even the 15" - but, really no idea which would be better performer of the 3? (On size alone, certainly the WAF points would be highest on the Ultracube)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 /forum/post/20842816


One other Canadian option:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep350.html
Click to expand...


Thanks. Hadn't even considered this before, although even with free shipping, this would be a little more than the SVS (SB12-NSD).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2011 /forum/post/20842674


Thanks for the link, spyboy. Seems they liked the HSU 3.3 a bit better - too bad its replacement, the VTF3 MK4 is a little bit above the $ range I'm trying to stay in.



I am still stewing a little over whether I should bit on the Velodyne 15, but here is another question - I can get 2 of the DLS-3750 (10") for the same price as the 15". But would this do me any good? From what I understand, 2 subs helps even out the overall room response, but it doesn't help you hit lower. The 10" is only rated to 28 Hz, so probably I am really fooling myself that I'm gaining anything by having 2 subs?
Click to expand...

Personally, I am not as comfortable recommending dual 10 inch Velo subs versus the single 15 inch Velo. A lot depends on your room. If corner placement works in your room, a single 15 should make you pretty happy with only one 15.


Also, don't forget that in the linked SoundandVision test, they used the Turbo with the HSU 3.3. HSU discontinued the Turbo, so you can't directly compare the measurements in that test to the Velo 15.
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If you are willing to spend the money for an SVS PC-12 NSD, that would trump any of the others mentioned, IMHO.
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^^^


What he said....
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M
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981
Note I'm talking about the bigger, and uglier PC12-NSD. The SB12-NSD due to its size will also falter short of the magic 20Hz number.
I just bought a pc12 after looking through a bunch of other ID brands. Here's what Jack had to saw about the pc12 v. The sb12, btw:


"The PC12-NSD has some appreciable advantages due to its much larger, ported cabinet. Not only will it extend deeper but (and this the graphs do not show) it will have far more output down low as well. It's not so much a "box vs. cylinder" comparison here, since our ported boxes and cylinders offer comparable performance. In this case, though, we're comparing a small, sealed subwoofer to a larger, ported one, with the advantage in the deep bass going decidedly to the ported PC12-NSD. They’ll both be great for music (primarily mid/upper bass), but the larger, ported PC12-NSD would be noticeably better on the deep bass found in HT LFE. This difference would be especially pronounced in a future, larger room.

*

Jack Gilvey

Director – Customer Service

SVSound"



Now I just got the sub in a few days ago: it rocks, but it is big!. It's only 17 inches in diameter but pretty tall. Its a bigger footprint than my mastiff (I'll try to get a pic of the two side by side if I can get him to pose!)



my two cents.....
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Appreciate that. But the price of the PC in Canada, plus shipping and tax would make it about $900 CAD, which is probably a fair bit more than I can get past the wife. The SB12-NSD is on "sale" right now through the Cdn distributor since it is pre-order for delivery some time next month. Even it would have been stretching my budget.


I'm thinking I will go buy the Velo 15 to secure it at the current favorable sale price and then keep searching/thinking.


Some things in life are a tradeoff, so maybe this is mine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski /forum/post/20845577


I just bought a pc12 after looking through a bunch of other ID brands. Here's what Jack had to saw about the pc12 v. The sb12, btw:


"The PC12-NSD has some appreciable advantages due to its much larger, ported cabinet. Not only will it extend deeper but (and this the graphs do not show) it will have far more output down low as well. It's not so much a "box vs. cylinder" comparison here, since our ported boxes and cylinders offer comparable performance. In this case, though, we're comparing a small, sealed subwoofer to a larger, ported one, with the advantage in the deep bass going decidedly to the ported PC12-NSD. They'll both be great for music (primarily mid/upper bass), but the larger, ported PC12-NSD would be noticeably better on the deep bass found in HT LFE. This difference would be especially pronounced in a future, larger room.

*

Jack Gilvey

Director - Customer Service

SVSound"



Now I just got the sub in a few days ago: it rocks, but it is big!. It's only 17 inches in diameter but pretty tall. Its a bigger footprint than my mastiff (I'll try to get a pic of the two side by side if I can get him to pose!)



my two cents.....
Click to expand...


How large is your room, by the way?


I am going to contact Sonic Boom (Cdn SVS distributor) and ask some questions about the PC12. Slyly queried the wife today and may be able to increase the budget enough to do this - I am all for it if it is truly worth it. For some odd reason I am just not sold on the Velo 15.
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