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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, I'm getting ready to take the plunge this fall. Goal is @$2000 range, so Z2, L500, and HS20 are the big contenders. Room will be dedicated home theater w/ light control and screen likely 50's x 90's range. However, for tv and sports, I definitely will want some lights on as it is more fun to watch with lights on for these type things. Will the Z2 or L500, with their 800 or so lumens be enough? The HS20 will be a lot more money and is much more than I was planning to spend. Although it has many advantages over the other two, all three will be terrific for movies (esp compared to my 27" TV!). But if I wont be able to watch sports with some lights on the HS20 will be worth the exta money. So, how many lumens do I need to watch a reasonable picture of sports and tv on a 100" dia screen with the lights on?


Thanks!

Art T
 

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it's really subjective. obviously direct sunlight on the screen will render all of your choices pretty useless...but a couple low wattage bulbs not aimed directly at the screen should still make for a very watchable picture.
 

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I don't think it matters how many lumens you have. If you have even a 60 watt bulb shining very close or right on the screen than the picture will be washed out a lot. If you go to the theater even there the picture is washed out with all the before they shut most of their lights off.


You can still turn some lights on though. I've watched my Family Guy DVDs at 8 feet wide with the 60 watt living room light on with great results.


The catch? The light is about 17 feet from the screen and is not putting too much direct light onto the screen.


Just keep as much light away from the screen and screen area as possible for the best results.
 

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Hello:

My HT room is 20' x 30' with an 8' x 6' screen. Projector has 2000 lumens. We watch TV with one lamp (100 watts) on all the time. This lamp is 15' away and directly in front of the screen - no problem. Our closest seats are 15' away from the screen. We also have five 40 watt wall mounted lamps - three down one side wall and two down the other which we usually turn on when watching DVD's. The 100 watt lamp is not on when the 40 watt lamps are on. Picture quality is definitely better when the 100 lamp is shut off. There are windows - one on each side wall and one in the back wall which have drapes but we never draw the drapes even during the day time.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Richard
 

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I wouldn't count on the HS20 being all that much brighter after calibration. From teh reports I have read, the HS10 certainly wasn't anywhere near its stated output after people got it properly setup. Oh, and the HS20 will likely be around $1k higher on street price than the Z2/L500.


RG
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Guynn
I wouldn't count on the HS20 being all that much brighter after calibration. From teh reports I have read, the HS10 certainly wasn't anywhere near its stated output after people got it properly setup. Oh, and the HS20 will likely be around $1k higher on street price than the Z2/L500.


RG
The HS10 requires a color correcting lens which robs 340 lumens from its claimed 1200 ansi lumens. The HS20 does not require this lens. IOWs, the HS20 should come closer to its rated lumens than the HS10 ever could.


You do make a good point. Lumen ratings are deceiving. All projectors have lumen killing adjustments that rob brightness. Gross lumen count doesn't mean much if the only way to get that light output is to have a bright washed out picture.


Gary
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtT
But if I wont be able to watch sports with some lights on the HS20 will be worth the exta money. So, how many lumens do I need to watch a reasonable picture of sports and tv on a 100" dia screen with the lights on?
I have a multi-purpose room (including kitchen, piano and AV areas). It is a very bright room overall. There are no drapes, but all of my windows are tinted for UV. I do not have any direct light on my screen and generally my AV area is fairly dim in the daytime.


At night, (unless we are watching a movie, and I insist on turning lights off) there are about 10 (75 watt) recessed lights on in the kitchen plus 5 (20 watt) halogen cabinet lights on. This still works well for normal tv watching. The key to the above is I do not have any lamps, globes or other lights turned on that reflect directly off the screen, ceiling or walls in the AV area.


I chose the HS10 and the Stewart Firehawk because my desires for daytime tv and sports are similar to yours.

Here is a picture of my setup on a bright afternoon.


Don't get to hung up on pj lumen specs. Real world, my settings for daytime are 900 lumens (brightest), night-time tv 455 lumens (a lot of recessed lights on) and night-time movies are adjusted to about 360 lumens (best black levels, all lights off except 20w accent lights). The HS20 should be better than this, but I have the HS10 and an upgrade at this early date is way out of the question.


Gary
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
But for sports, which are bright and saturated colors, with a crowd, we're willing to sacrifice picture quality and run the pj on maximum output without any of the lumen robbing tweaks (irises, filters, etc). Given this, the hs20 packs 50% more output as rated. Even with some error, it should have more significantly more output. So, is 700-800 (max output of the z2 and l500) going to be enough to watch with no direct sun but a few 60w bulbs scattered strategically around the room to give enough ambient light to look like a normal room rather than a darkened theater. For that matter, is 1300 lumens enough it this setting (100" screen)?

ArtT
 

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Hello:

I have to tell you that in my case if we watch TV during the day with the drapes open the picture is not outstanding and we have closed the drapes and that's with a rated 2000 lumens..

Oh, I for got to say in my earlier thread that the 40 watt lamps are on a dimmer so we have them turned down so there is just a soft "glow" in the room.

Regards,

Richard
 

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Here's a way to analyze your brightness:


You want your screen to be 50" x 90". In feet, and correcting that figure from 1:1.8 to 1:1.77 (16:9), that works out to 7.50' wide by 4.22' high.


From there, square feet can be easily calculated, so it's 31.65 square feet.


Since you're on a limited budget, I'll assume that a Firehawk or other pricey high-gain screen isn't an option, so you'll go with a screen approximating unity gain.


For an 800 lumen projector -- assuming your projector delivers all 800 lumens -- that works out to 25 foot-lamberts, best-case. That's enough to watch in complete darkness, but probably too low for daylight viewing.


Before I sold my projector a few weeks ago (long story), I used a 1500 lumen Epson projector. (with Epson, you get all the advertised lumens unless you tweak it down) That was projecting onto a 6' x 4.5' screen, so I got about 55 foot-lamberts -- enough to watch in the daytime, with the blinds shut (my blinds are NOT room-darkening, so plenty of light leaked in.) It also looked fine at night with all the room lights on but *not* shining directly on the screen.


With the lights subdued or off, the bright picture was wonderful, particularly when sitting far back from the screen. It was less like a movie and more like reality!


Personally, I'd insist on 50 foot-lamberts from my projector, even in total darkness. Yes everyone says movies are really shown at 16 foot-lamberts, but the brighter image is just so much more "alive" Large-format Showscan films were shown at 35 foot-lamberts, 60 fps, people said it was more like a window on reality than just a movie. Brighter IS better!


I wish I could afford a Sanyo -70, and a house to put it in... can't have both tho' ;-)
 

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I have the Panasonic 300U, with the NDx2 and CCo5M filters installed... it's pretty much unwatchable before dusk, unfortunately... even with the blinds closed in my Living room. The high hats wash it out, the sunlight washes it out, the indirect daylight that seeps through the mini-blinds washes it out. Can't win. I justify it by telling myself I shouldn't be watching TV when it's daylight out anyway :)
 

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If you go with a Hi-Power screen, sit in the sweet spot with the projector either on a table or low enough overhead to give you good gain, and you can keep the lights to the sides, then it would seem like the HS20 would be plenty bright enough for sports. The others might be also. The key is getting the light to come from the sides or above where the Hi-Power will reject most of it. The Firehawk is also good at this, but for sports the Hi-Power is even brighter. If my light comes from the same direction as the projector it washes things out pretty quickly, but I could watch football with my Sharp 10k with a big chandelier (20 bulbs) on. One key is that it is way off to the side in what would normally be the distance to another room (my entry and living room are together).


EDIT: I didn't do a very good job of explaining the layout, but I posted a picture here in the past that shows the chandelier and the screen.


--Darin
 

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Hello:

This certainly is an interesting question and tjstrano has offered a good analysis. It's always good if you can quantify a situation. A quick investigation verifys that the Society of Motion Picture and TV Engineers (SMPTE) standards call for 16 foot-lamberts of illuminatin on the center of a movie theater screen. This is fine for a dark theater but how does it apply for your home HT? It gives us a starting point. In my case I have a rated 42 foot-lamberts and during the day I can watch TV but, again, the picture quality is not great. So I think that tjstrano's suggestion of 50 foot-lamberts is in the ball park for what is needed.

When I was researching the specs for a pj it was recommended by a friend to buy the brightest pj I could affort and I'm not sorry that I did.

Regards,

Richard
 

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You need at least twenty-thousand lumens to get an acceptable picture.


just kidding


How many lumans would you need if you wanted to use the sun as a screen and still get a 2000 to 1 contrast ratio?


I think I need sleep now.


Walt
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Dahrich
When I was researching the specs for a pj it was recommended by a friend to buy the brightest pj I could affort and I'm not sorry that I did.

Regards,Richard
Of course the converse of this foot lambert quest is to buy the smallest screen you can find. How big is yours? :D


Gary
 

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darin is on the right track suggesting a high power screen at this class of screen is good at ambient light rejection. though this may bust the budget, you specified daylight viewing. the only issue there is if you want to have a crowd watching, pay very close attention to viewing angle for all the seating locations. high gain screens have a narrower viewing cone than matte ones.
 

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Hello again:

FYI. My screen is a Da-Lite Da-Mat High Contrast one. Gain = 0.8 and my total included viewing angle is 33 degrees or less. Da-Lite specs on viewing angle is 45 degrees.

Regards,

Richard
 

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You guys have to remember these are projectors. Any ambient light, no matter how little, is going to hurt the picture.


If you are just viewing Powerpoint graphics and stuff, it is no big deal. But for movies you want a dark room. I don't care how many lumens you have, you want the room as dark as possible. It if isn't, the dark sections of the screen are going to be muddy and lack contrast.


If you can't live with this, don't buy a projector. Get a normal TV.


One more thing to consider is that the screen itself will put out lots of light all by itself. If the picture is of something reasonably bright, like a football game, you will definitely be able to see everyone in the room, and maybe even read the TV guide, just from the light off the screen.
 
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