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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This might be a newbie question but...


Are all of these firmware updates to have the 1st generation players internally decode and output the new audio CODECs just a stopgap until AVRs that can decode them arrive? Isn't the optimum situation to have a quality AVR being fed the information over HDMI and then having it decode the information (as opposed to the player decoding and sending the it over analog outputs). Am I wrong in thinking that the player is really just a transport device, the AVR should be handing all audio decoding duties?


I keep reading about all the base management problems with the analog 5.1 connections (that you have to set up your speakers through the player menus) and I thought that's why things like DenonLink were so great, because it could pass SACD digitally as opposed to being forced to feed it to the AVR over analog 5.1 inputs. I keep reading how people are blown away by the uncompressed tracks over 5.1 outputs but isn't that going to be trounced down the line when the AVRs decode DTS Lossless and such?


I'm weighing my choices of BD players and if I'm right, it seems to me that since I currently do not have a receiver that accepts HDMI that I WILL want to upgrade in the next couple of years, but... if I buy a BD player without HDMI 1.3, I will also need to upgrade that down the line as well (strictly in regards to getting the best possible audio).


Is my line of thinking wrong here?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by corymat /forum/post/0


This might be a newbie question but...


Are all of these firmware updates to have the 1st generation players internally decode and output the new audio CODECs just a stopgap until AVRs that can decode them arrive? Isn't the optimum situation to have a quality AVR being fed the information over HDMI and then having it decode the information (as opposed to the player decoding and sending the it over analog outputs). Am I wrong in thinking that the player is really just a transport device, the AVR should be handing all audio decoding duties?


I keep reading about all the base management problems with the analog 5.1 connections (that you have to set up your speakers through the player menus) and I thought that's why things like DenonLink were so great, because it could pass SACD digitally as opposed to being forced to feed it to the AVR over analog 5.1 inputs. I keep reading how people are blown away by the uncompressed tracks over 5.1 outputs but isn't that going to be trounced down the line when the AVRs decode DTS Lossless and such?


I'm weighing my choices of BD players and if I'm right, it seems to me that since I currently do not have a receiver that accepts HDMI that I WILL want to upgrade in the next couple of years, but... if I buy a BD player without HDMI 1.3, I will also need to upgrade that down the line as well (strictly in regards to getting the best possible audio).


Is my line of thinking wrong here?

Yes, and no. It depends on the specific equipment and what you want. Someone who doesn't want 8 speakers can ignore 7.1. Someone with a receiver that can pass through analog inputs (not digitize them) isn't going to take a noticeable performance hit from analog outputs (unless his receiver DACs are better than his player DACs). DTS or Dolby lossless isn't going to be better than uncompressed PCM...the idea behind DTS and Dolby lossless is to make them identical to uncompressed PCM.
 

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The problem is you need HDMI 1.3 in order to let the receiver handle the decoding of advanced audio codecs. Currently PS3 is the only blu-ray player which has HDMI 1.3.


You are correct that at some point in the future receivers will handle the duty of decoding audio codecs, and therefore advanced audio support will be a non-issue in players.
 

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IeraseU said:
The problem is you need HDMI 1.3 in order to let the receiver handle the decoding of advanced audio codecs. ... QUOTE]


This is not quite true. With regards to the Sony BDP-S1, here is a quote

from Ultimate AV regarding the lossless audio codecs:


"The BDP-HD1 is not compatible with either Dolby TrueHD lossless or DTS-HD Master Audio lossless, other than the ability to playback the "core streams" for each, which are compatible with existing lossy Dolby Digital and DTS decoders at 640kbps and 1.5Mbps, respectively.


Is this a death knell? Hardly. The BDP-HD1 is firmware upgradeable, so it's not at all out of the question to think an upgrade will allow decoding of TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio, or both. Once an update happens, the player would then decode TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio for output over the analog multichannels outputs, or transcode the lossless steams to PCM, which can go over the HDMI output.

All that HDMI 1.3 would add is the ability to carry the new lossless streams in their native, digital form. This, in turn, would require that the AV receiver or pre-pro be capable of internally decoding these formats."
 

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Which is ultimately what we want.
 

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Quote:
the player would then decode TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio for output over the analog multichannels outputs, or transcode the lossless steams to PCM, which can go over the HDMI output.

What's the diff between transporting the lossless streams in PCM or transporting the native TrueHD/DTS HD-MA? They're both digital and in both cases the D/A conversion is done in the receiver or prepro. There is no difference. The difference may be audible when comparing HDMI to analog 5.1 where the DAC in the player (via analog 5.1) is generally not as good as the receiver (via HDMI).


The confusion lies in the word "decoding." Many still think decoding = D/A conversion. This is carried over from early DVD days when many didn't have dolby digital and the only way to get 5.1 was to have the player do the decoding AND the D/A conversion. In HD, transmitting decoded PCM thru HDMI is still digital.


Isn't it true HD disks authored with advanced audio support must have the decoding done in the player? And isn't true that almost all disks released so far has adv audio support? Then what's HDMI 1.3 for again?
 

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For transfering the digital multichannel 7.1 PCM data to the receiver. HDMI 1.2 is not able to handle this.


What is the difference? Its easy. The difference is that it is much easier for AVR manufacturers to implement pcm decoding then TrueHD or DTS HD-MA. And if the receiver is able to handle unkompressed PCM, and the Player may decode TrueHD to PCM or whatever new format the DVD industrie will create. This means the AVR will able to keep up with every new format.


The other Difference is: PCM has more space demands then the lossless compressed formats. And that is the difference in terms of BD manufacturers.


Protheus
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The difference may be audible when comparing HDMI to analog 5.1 where the DAC in the player (via analog 5.1) is generally not as good as the receiver (via HDMI).


The confusion lies in the word "decoding." Many still think decoding = D/A conversion. This is carried over from early DVD days when many didn't have dolby digital and the only way to get 5.1 was to have the player do the decoding AND the D/A conversion. In HD, transmitting decoded PCM thru HDMI is still digital.




So, if you are using the analog connections from the player than the player is doing the D/A conversion?


Everybody seems unanymous that this uncompressed audio through 5.1 outs is great, so are the DACs in these first generation players really better than most recent receivers (I have a Yamaha RX-V1500)?
 

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"For transfering the digital multichannel 7.1 PCM data to the receiver."


Why would you want to currrently? There are no 7.1 sources.



"The other Difference is: PCM has more space demands then the lossless compressed formats. And that is the difference in terms of BD manufacturers."


That doesn't matter in our discussion. You don't need HDMI 1.3 to enjoy the latest audio formats is what I'm saying. HDMI 1.1 can carry at least 6ch of PCM. My prepro, Anthem AVM20, will be able to handle HDMI when I upgrade it. It will let me layer DPL IIx or THX Ultra 2 on top of the 6ch input (HDMI) to playback across my 7.1 speaker system. I was asking a rhetorical question when I asked "what's the differece"



Members here much smarter and better informed than I have stated that player decoding is better than receiver/prepro. Protheus, you are right saying that this allows prepro to keep up with emerging formats. I think those members are getting tired of trying to convince people v1.3, deep color, blah blah blah is hype.
 

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Cannot HDMI 1.2a carry 7.1 channels? Anyway Resistance fall of Man (a PS3 game) is full 7.1.. it sounds amazing..... the PS3 is a great BD player, decoding the sound before it leaves the player and letting the receiver handle the rest, no need for HDMI 1.3 at all.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bing /forum/post/0


What's the diff between transporting the lossless streams in PCM or transporting the native TrueHD/DTS HD-MA? They're both digital and in both cases the D/A conversion is done in the receiver or prepro. There is no difference. The difference may be audible when comparing HDMI to analog 5.1 where the DAC in the player (via analog 5.1) is generally not as good as the receiver (via HDMI).


The confusion lies in the word "decoding." Many still think decoding = D/A conversion. This is carried over from early DVD days when many didn't have dolby digital and the only way to get 5.1 was to have the player do the decoding AND the D/A conversion. In HD, transmitting decoded PCM thru HDMI is still digital.


Isn't it true HD disks authored with advanced audio support must have the decoding done in the player? And isn't true that almost all disks released so far has adv audio support? Then what's HDMI 1.3 for again?

Bing, I agree with you 100%, guys, don't fall for the HDMI 1.3 marketing hype.
 

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Quote:
The D2 HDMI 1.1 connection is able to pass all the older audio formats (at the exception of the SACD format) and is fully ready for the HD-DVD and Blu-ray HD audio formats by supporting up to 8 channels of 96KHz/24bit digital audio over HDMI (an HDMI 1.1 link supports 24/192 format ONLY for a stereo channel).

This is a quote from Levesque, an Anthem D2 owner. This should answer people's questions about HDMI 1.1 and its compatiblity with HD formats.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskollar /forum/post/0


One interesting thing about HDMI 1.3 that is often overlooked is that it is supposed to have, as I understand it, some way of correcting lip sync issues between your TV, DVD player, and Receiver.

That is true; however, the execution is dependent upon both your TV and audio processor/receiver having the specific capability to implement (i.e., TV must be capable of telling the receiver the amount of time required for it's video processing and the receiver must be capable of reading the info and adjusting the time delay accordingly).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb /forum/post/0


That is true; however, the execution is dependent upon both your TV and audio processor/receiver having the specific capability to implement (i.e., TV must be capable of telling the receiver the amount of time required for it's video processing and the receiver must be capable of reading the info and adjusting the time delay accordingly).

Exactly!
Someday I'll be replacing my amp, TV, HD-DVD player and Blu ray player. Won't happen for several years though and I hope that HDMI 1.3 is common.
 
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