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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I would like to know if there is a video calibration disc or picture patterns that allows RGB standard calibration (0-255) instead of Rec.709 standard (16-235).


I'm asking this because I have a PS3, which supports RGB full range (0-255), and I know my TV also supports RGB full range (I've tested it with AVS AVCHD Rec709 calibraiton disc).


So, I'd like to calibrate both my TV and my PS3 to match RGB color standard for games, which can ad some color range details, I think.


I have a i1Display LT colorimeter and I'm using HCFR color software.


How can I have a true RGB greyscale in % from 0%(0) to 100%(255)?


How can I have color saturation levels for RGB calibration (Red=255,0,0 instead of 235,0,0)?


Thanks in advance.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonRabbit79 /forum/post/15588635


Hi, I would like to know if there is a video calibration disc or picture patterns that allows RGB standard calibration (0-255) instead of Rec.709 standard (16-235).


I'm asking this because I have a PS3, which supports RGB full range (0-255), and I know my TV also supports RGB full range (I've tested it with AVS AVCHD Rec709 calibraiton disc).


So, I'd like to calibrate both my TV and my PS3 to match RGB color standard for games, which can ad some color range details, I think.


I have a i1Display LT colorimeter and I'm using HCFR color software.


How can I have a true RGB greyscale in % from 0%(0) to 100%(255)?


How can I have color saturation levels for RGB calibration (Red=255,0,0 instead of 235,0,0)?


Thanks in advance.

I think you're mistaken the full range setting on the PS3 is so you can hook it up to a PC monitor, the full range setting on the TV is so that you can hook a PC up to the TV.


The PS3 and games for it are (should) be designed to work in limited mode. The Rec.709 colorspace is the destination for PS3 games.
 

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What he said, but if you do need graphics level alignment for a PC, there are many monitor calibration tools and patterns floating around the web, many of them free, and they usually use graphics range.
 

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The two responses above do not match my understanding of tv calibration, atleast for greyscale.


If you choose RGB on the ps3 it means white will be 255ire and black will be 0ire. On the calibration side you need to set contrast so 255 is white and brightness so 0 is black.


Everything else would be the same calibration wise. I am unsure how the colors are handled...


Now the reason we usually go with video levels is because that is how movies and TV shows are produced. If you setup the ps3 for RGB and calibrate your tv with it. It will be fine for the ps3, but if you decide to switch to watching TV... Now your display is improperly calibrated.


I have a ps3 and have it setup on limited and calibrated my display accordingly.


Daniel
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti /forum/post/15589134


I think you're mistaken the full range setting on the PS3 is so you can hook it up to a PC monitor, the full range setting on the TV is so that you can hook a PC up to the TV.


The PS3 and games for it are (should) be designed to work in limited mode. The Rec.709 colorspace is the destination for PS3 games.

The PS3 supports several color spaces : sRGB, Rec709, Rec601 and x.v.Color. See the link below :

http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Video .


When you see the XMB menu of the PS3 (RSX rendered), it is rendered in the RGB color space and if you choose RGB full range it outputs 0-255. Limited mode does overlay and remaps 0-255 to 16-235. So, with PS3 and games, I think the TV becomes like a PC monitor.


All games are rendered in RGB (RSX rendered), some may use full color range 0-255 (HDMI connection is Y/Cb/Cr but in theory supports 0-255 color range).


So, my question is how do I calibrate for RGB full range? Do I make myself some pictures for the greyscale, for example 100% = 255,255,255, 90%=229,229,229 and so on? What about colors?


Note that I have however properly calibrated my TV to match the Rec709 color space when watching movies and TV (Y/Cb/Cr output). But I would like to switch between the two profiles (I have two expert settings memory slots for each input of my TV).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonRabbit79 /forum/post/15592596


The PS3 supports several color spaces : sRGB, Rec709, Rec601 and x.v.Color. See the link below :

http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Video .


When you see the XMB menu of the PS3 (RSX rendered), it is rendered in the RGB color space and if you choose RGB full range it outputs 0-255. Limited mode does overlay and remaps 0-255 to 16-235. So, with PS3 and games, I think the TV becomes like a PC monitor.


All games are rendered in RGB (RSX rendered), some may use full color range 0-255 (HDMI connection is Y/Cb/Cr but in theory supports 0-255 color range).


So, my question is how do I calibrate for RGB full range? Do I make myself some pictures for the greyscale, for example 100% = 255,255,255, 90%=229,229,229 and so on? What about colors?


Note that I have however properly calibrated my TV to match the Rec709 color space when watching movies and TV (Y/Cb/Cr output). But I would like to switch between the two profiles (I have two expert settings memory slots for each input of my TV).

There are only 2 color spaces we (commonly) work in/with for home theater... SMPTE-C for standard def sources and Rec.709 for HD sources.


RGB is not a color space. It is a data format.


Your question concerns whether you do anything different for full-range (0-255) versus limited/video range (16-235). If we assume data is formatted as R,G,B, 100% red would be 235,16,16 using the "normal" video data format. Using full range RGB, red would be 255,0,0. Both sets of coordinates will take you to the same reference point as described by Rec.709. In other words, 235,16,16 and 255,0,0 both take you to the same 100% red point in HDTV color space. If anything different happened, we'd have a big fat mess. You can mess this up if a disc player and/or display have manual mode selections for full-range vs normal/video and you don't set both the player and TV to the same mode.


That said, there's no guarantee the disc player or TV will do EXACTLY the right thing for both full-range and normal/video data formats. It's worth checking if you feel this is something critical for you. But chances are, there will be minimal or no differences when you switch back and forth between full range and video range, color-wise or grayscale-wise or gamma-wise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn /forum/post/15598860


There are only 2 color spaces we (commonly) work in/with for home theater... SMPTE-C for standard def sources and Rec.709 for HD sources.


RGB is not a color space. It is a data format.


Your question concerns whether you do anything different for full-range (0-255) versus limited/video range (16-235). If we assume data is formatted as R,G,B, 100% red would be 235,16,16 using the "normal" video data format. Using full range RGB, red would be 255,0,0. Both sets of coordinates will take you to the same reference point as described by Rec.709. In other words, 235,16,16 and 255,0,0 both take you to the same 100% red point in HDTV color space. If anything different happened, we'd have a big fat mess. You can mess this up if a disc player and/or display have manual mode selections for full-range vs normal/video and you don't set both the player and TV to the same mode.


That said, there's no guarantee the disc player or TV will do EXACTLY the right thing for both full-range and normal/video data formats. It's worth checking if you feel this is something critical for you. But chances are, there will be minimal or no differences when you switch back and forth between full range and video range, color-wise or grayscale-wise or gamma-wise.

Ok, thanks Doug.


If I understand correclty, RGB is the data format and the Rec.709 color space can be set so that black level is at video black (235,16,16) or "computer" black (255,0,0). But, independantly of that black level, color points must be the same.


For the other part, my TV is set so that blacker than black BTB is visible when calibrating with a DVD or Blu-ray (this is the option Black level set to "High" and I suppose this is HDMI black level set to 0 instead of 16 (?)). In the other hand, my PS3 is set to Y/Cb/Cr SuperWhite "on" so that it doesn't clip BTB and whiter than white (WTW) information. I do that because I heard that it is best to not clip any information.


I could set the TV so that the HDMI black level is at 16(?) (the option Black level is set to "low"), but it seems it messes up the whole greyscale in the sense that instead of just clipping BTB, it seems that the entire greyscale is shifted: for example, for the same brightness and contrast levels, 10%, 20% and 30% greys are darker and 80%, 90% and 100% greys are whiter (measured with my colorimeter). This setting doesn't seem to clip WTW. In the contrary, setting PS3 SuperWhite "off" just clip BTB and WTW, wihtout messing with the greyscale levels.

My question : what seems to be the right HDMI level of my TV and the PS3 when calibrating for video black and "computer" black?


As for the RGB range option on the PS3, I know that setting it to limited with calibration settings obtain with black set at 16 for my TV is correct, but like I said, I'd like to set it to full and adjust the HDMI black level, brightness and contrast on my TV accordingly, but I don't know how.


Thanks in advance.
 

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If you want to just calibrate the display, then use computer calibration items like ChrisWiggles mentioned. For example I think the CalMAN computer pattern gererator can be set for either 0-255 or 16-235, but it's a Windows program. ColorHCFR can also do 0-255 patterns, but again it's a Windows program. I think the PS3 can display images or run a version of linux, so you might be able to do things that way using either images or Linux. In that case the main issue would probably be trying to verify that the PS3 doesn't alter levels depending on the source. In theory they should have things worked out so that levels all line up and you get the intended output regardless of source. Probably what I would do is just to use 0-255 images and then backcheck by running measures on a calibration Blu-ray or DVD. If the PS3 is handling levels correctly it will expand the 16-235 to 0-255, but of course if that's the case then you could have just ignored a 0-255 source in the first place and used a typical video calibration disc.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti /forum/post/15589134


I think you're mistaken the full range setting on the PS3 is so you can hook it up to a PC monitor, the full range setting on the TV is so that you can hook a PC up to the TV.


The PS3 and games for it are (should) be designed to work in limited mode. The Rec.709 colorspace is the destination for PS3 games.

Games on the PS3 are designed to be displayed on regular HDTVs (studio 16-235).


End of story.



All other configuration options are there to allow you to use the PS3 with different equipment. If you really want to expand the levels coming off the PS3 you can, then you just need to adjust your contrast and brightness. The rec.709 AVS disc would be a great choice to help you do that (remember the number on the rec disc are the encoded numbers, if you expand they will clip at 16 renders at 0 and 235 renders at 255).
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti /forum/post/15602899


Games on the PS3 are designed to be displayed on regular HDTVs (studio 16-235).


End of story.



All other configuration options are there to allow you to use the PS3 with different equipment. If you really want to expand the levels coming off the PS3 you can, then you just need to adjust your contrast and brightness. The rec.709 AVS disc would be a great choice to help you do that (remember the number on the rec disc are the encoded numbers, if you expand they will clip at 16 renders at 0 and 235 renders at 255).

Ok, thank you so much for your help.


So, from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong:


1-If I set my TV HDMI level to "High" (black = 16, white = 235) and PS3 SuperWhite to "On" (and DVD/Blu-ray ouput set to Y/Cb/Cr) and I use the brightness test pattern from AVS AVCHD Rec.709 (flashing black bars), the black background will be 16 black, but I will see BTB information. I then just have to adjust brightness so that the black backgound matches the 16 flashing black bar (and verify my setting with my colorimeter so that gamma at 10% grey is around 2.22).


The same reasonning applies to the contrast test pattern (flashing white bars), but I should allow flashing above 235 white, as I heard helps to obtain optimal picture quality (and verify contrast adjustment to prevent a significant gamma drop at 100% grey).


Doing so, the PS3 RGB range should be set to "Limited" (16-235).


2- If I set my TV HDMI level to "Low" (black = 0, white = 255) and PS3 Super White to "Off" (and DVD/Blu-ray ouput set to Y/Cb/Cr) and I use the brightness test patterns from AVS AVCHD Rec.709, the TV will remap 16 black to 0 black and I won't be able to see the BTB information, because if black is set to 0, there should not be any BTB information. The black background will be 0 black. I then should adjust brightness so that my gamma is around 2.22 at 10% grey.


The same reasonning applies to the contrast test pattern (flashing white bars), but I should allow flashing at 255 white (and verify contrast adjustment to prevent a significant gamma drop at 100% grey).


Doing so, the PS3 RGB range should be set to "Full" (0-255).

3- However, doing 2 is useless and wrong, because DVDs, Blu-rays and PS3 games have their black level set at 16 and their white level set at 235. I then sould leave my TV HDMI level to "High" and the PS3 RGB range option and the SuperWhite option to "Limited" and to "On" respectively, unless I use my TV as a PC monitor (vga or DVI connection) or I hook up the PS3 to a PC monitor.



Thanks in advance.
 

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I don't have a ps3 to play with so I can only look at the manual, but it looks like the super white setting is really to enable x.v.YCC color setting. You can just leave superwhite off all the time.


#1 is correct TV on High, PS3 on limited. That is how the video chain is designed to run.


#2 is like a PC with the TV on Low an the PS3 on full. There is nothing wrong with this setting, but you do loose BTB and WTW content. Some quantization error may occour, but the TV will eventually expand the content to full at some point anyway (since the pixels on the panel are 8bit per color, full dynamic range uses all 8bits anyway).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti /forum/post/15603864


I don't have a ps3 to play with so I can only look at the manual, but it looks like the super white setting is really to enable x.v.YCC color setting. You can just leave superwhite off all the time.


#1 is correct TV on High, PS3 on limited. That is how the video chain is designed to run.


#2 is like a PC with the TV on Low an the PS3 on full. There is nothing wrong with this setting, but you do loose BTB and WTW content. Some quantization error may occour, but the TV will eventually expand the content to full at some point anyway (since the pixels on the panel are 8bit per color, full dynamic range uses all 8bits anyway).

Thanks a lot.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonRabbit79 /forum/post/15601807


Ok, thanks Doug.


If I understand correclty, RGB is the data format and the Rec.709 color space can be set so that black level is at video black (235,16,16) or "computer" black (255,0,0). But, independantly of that black level, color points must be the same.


For the other part, my TV is set so that blacker than black BTB is visible when calibrating with a DVD or Blu-ray (this is the option Black level set to "High" and I suppose this is HDMI black level set to 0 instead of 16 (?)). In the other hand, my PS3 is set to Y/Cb/Cr SuperWhite "on" so that it doesn't clip BTB and whiter than white (WTW) information. I do that because I heard that it is best to not clip any information.


I could set the TV so that the HDMI black level is at 16(?) (the option Black level is set to "low"), but it seems it messes up the whole greyscale in the sense that instead of just clipping BTB, it seems that the entire greyscale is shifted: for example, for the same brightness and contrast levels, 10%, 20% and 30% greys are darker and 80%, 90% and 100% greys are whiter (measured with my colorimeter). This setting doesn't seem to clip WTW. In the contrary, setting PS3 SuperWhite "off" just clip BTB and WTW, wihtout messing with the greyscale levels.

My question : what seems to be the right HDMI level of my TV and the PS3 when calibrating for video black and "computer" black?


As for the RGB range option on the PS3, I know that setting it to limited with calibration settings obtain with black set at 16 for my TV is correct, but like I said, I'd like to set it to full and adjust the HDMI black level, brightness and contrast on my TV accordingly, but I don't know how.


Thanks in advance.

The correct PS3 settings are Linited and SuperWhite ON. Your TV should also be set to a black level of high/normal/video (different brands use different terminology.


Using a different setup is more likely to cause errors or problems that using what is encoded on every source you are likely to be using (except PC graphics).


With everything setup correctly, you may or may not "see" below black. Varies from TV to TV. When you display a PLUGE pattern, you are supposed to raise the Brightness (black) control until you can see the below black bar, then turn the Brightness control DOWN until the below black bar disappears. So even if your display will show below black, when it is adjusted properly, you will never SEE below black.]
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn /forum/post/15614516


The correct PS3 settings are Linited and SuperWhite ON. Your TV should also be set to a black level of high/normal/video (different brands use different terminology.


Using a different setup is more likely to cause errors or problems that using what is encoded on every source you are likely to be using (except PC graphics).


With everything setup correctly, you may or may not "see" below black. Varies from TV to TV. When you display a PLUGE pattern, you are supposed to raise the Brightness (black) control until you can see the below black bar, then turn the Brightness control DOWN until the below black bar disappears. So even if your display will show below black, when it is adjusted properly, you will never SEE below black.]

Ok thanks.


With TV HDMI black level set to High (black=16, white=235) and PS3 SuperWhite set to On, I can see below black and above white information.


But what I found is rather funny:


I have a 37LG30 which has a 10-points greyscale calibration option. By default, in this expert mode, the TV HDMI black level is set to Low (black=0 and white=255).


What I discovered is that, for example, the TV 100% grey setting (R-G-B cut or gain) affects white at 255 and not white at 235. 100% grey setting, even if TV HDMI black level is set to High, always refers to 255 white (100% in RGB "computer mode") which in fact correspond to the 109% grey test patterns from AVS AVCHD Rec.709 calibration disc.


So, I remaped the values to accurately adjust the greyscale and by using the right grey (using DVE which has 5% increment greyscale levels).
 
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